Missing Home Plate

[Guest CB3]

We had this scenario in our game the other night. Bases were loaded, the batter gets hit by a pitch. The runner from 3rd misses home plate initially, after taking 3-4 steps towards the dugout, he goes back to step on home plate. The umpire picks up the dead ball (after the HBP), hands it to the catcher and the catcher tags our runner before he touches home. Umpire calls him out, what is the official ruling? I know it is not correct!

[Senor Azul]

Mr. aaluck, what I cited was case book play 8.2.2C—what you came back with was rule 8-2-2. Please read my post—I even used the words case book play in describing the citation. In addition I used the proper form for separating case book references with decimal points not hyphens.

[aaluck]

If FED rules a dead ball appeal is allowed. He is out.

“ART. 2 . . . When the ball becomes dead:

a. no action by the defense can cause a player to be put out (unless it is a dead-ball appeal);”

Excerpt From: NFHS. “2018 NFHS Baseball Rules Book.” iBooks. https://books.apple.com/us/book/2018-nfhs-baseball-rules-book/id1314997555

[noumpere]

23 minutes ago, aaluck said:

If FED rules a dead ball appeal is allowed. He is out.

“ART. 2 . . . When the ball becomes dead:

a. no action by the defense can cause a player to be put out (unless it is a dead-ball appeal);”

Excerpt From: NFHS. “2018 NFHS Baseball Rules Book.” iBooks. https://books.apple.com/us/book/2018-nfhs-baseball-rules-book/id1314997555

Except that the runner is allowed to complete his baserunning responsibilities before an appeal should be allowed AND if the runner has started to return to the plate before the appeal is initiated then the appeal should not be allowed.  See for example (it's not exact to this situation) 8.2.2M (2017 reference)

[aaluck]

8 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Except that the runner is allowed to complete his baserunning responsibilities before an appeal should be allowed AND if the runner has started to return to the plate before the appeal is initiated then the appeal should not be allowed. 

I would say as to point one he was allowed to complete his base running responsibilities--no one prevented him from stepping on home plate.  He just failed to do so properly.

Second, on your first point, the ball did not go out of play. It was dead which I read as governed as c(1) not (2). He completed his 'advancement' once he passed the bag--again not properly which is a responsibility.

“c. Dead Ball. The dead-ball appeal may be made: 1) Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called, a coach or any defensive player, with or without the ball, may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. The administering umpire should then make a decision on the play. 2) If the ball has gone out of play, runners must be given the opportunity to complete their base-running responsibilities before the dead-ball appeal can be made.”

On your second point I can see the timing issue.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. aaluck, the FED rule book does not differentiate between the causes of a dead ball situation—they are listed in rule 5 as co-equals. The ball does not have to physically be thrown into a dead ball area. I refer you to case book play 8.2.2C where it discusses a ball thrown out of play and the runner’s rights.

8.2.2 Situation C:  RULING: …The defense cannot appeal the missed base if the runner has initiated an attempt to return to the base or until all playing action is over.

Rule 2 SECTION 11 DEAD BALL

The ball becomes dead when acts listed in 5-1 occur or play is suspended as in 5-2-1. See table in Rule 5.

Rule 5 SECTION 1 DEAD BALL

ART. 1 . . . Ball becomes dead immediately when:

a. a pitch touches a batter or his clothing (8-1-1d), a runner (8-3-1a)

8.2.2 Situation M:  With R2, B2 hits a grounder to left field. R2 touches third base but misses the plate in attempting to score. F7 having thrown home, F2 steps on the missed base to retire R2 and throws to F6 in an attempt to put out B2:  (a) before R2 attempts to return home; or (b) after R2 attempts to return to touch home plate. RULING:  (a) Upon proper defensive appeal, R2 would be ruled out. (b) Since R2 initiated action prior to the defense touching the plate, R2 must be tagged to record the out. R2 may legally return to touch home if he has not touched the steps of the dugout and if a subsequent runner has not yet scored.

[aaluck]

15 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

8.2.2?

“ART. 2 . . . A returning runner shall retouch the bases in reverse order. If the ball is dead because of an uncaught foul, it is not necessary for a returning ­runner to retouch intervening bases. The umpire will not make the ball live until the ­runner returns to the appropriate base.”

How is 8.2.2 applicable to this situation? This is not an issue of him returning to his appropriate base... here he has missed a bag. U

8.2.5 (bold and underlined) would be the proper rule....wouldn't it?

“ART. 5 . . . If a runner who misses any base (including home plate) or leaves a base too early, desires to return to touch the base, he must do so immediately. If the ball becomes dead and the runner is on or beyond a succeeding base, he cannot return to the missed base and, therefore, is subject to being declared out upon proper and successful appeal.”

Further, 8-2-5 (bold only) seems to indicate that since there is no differentiating as to what caused the dead ball (as you state above) he cannot return as he is beyond his succeeding base.

Why the FED would put missing bag (in the case book) under 8-2-2 when 8-2-5 specifically addressed missing bags I cannot understand.

[Aging_Arbiter]

is it just me.......................but why did the umpire "pick up" the ball?

[Senor Azul]

In high school ball a dead ball appeal can be made with or without the ball. In the OP the ball was immediately dead when the pitch hit the batter. So I don’t see what difference it would make if the umpire picked up the current game ball and returned it to a player. In the scenario presented in the OP the umpire was wrong because he did not allow the base runner to complete his legal right to finish his base running obligations before allowing the dead ball appeal.

may legally return to touch home if he has not touched the steps of the dugout and if a subsequent runner has not yet scored

The defense cannot appeal the missed base if the runner has initiated an attempt to return to the base or until all playing action is over.

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, aaluck said:

How is 8.2.2 applicable to this situation? This is not an issue of him returning to his a

 

Dot for cases; dashes for rules.  SOP.

[Replacematt]

16 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. aaluck, the FED rule book does not differentiate between the causes of a dead ball situation—they are listed in rule 5 as co-equals. The ball does not have to physically be thrown into a dead ball area. I refer you to case book play 8.2.2C where it discusses a ball thrown out of play and the runner’s rights.

8.2.2 Situation C:  RULING: …The defense cannot appeal the missed base if the runner has initiated an attempt to return to the base or until all playing action is over.

 

So, let's talk about why this ruling (and FED in general) sucks, and is impossible to officiate...

In the OP, the runner did not initiate an attempt until 3-4 steps after missing the base. The ball was not live, so playing action was over at that point. To give him an opportunity to complete his responsibilities (a concept that in my estimation was completed when he missed the base, as he had every chance to advance legally) by this idiotic rule requires that the umpire do something that tips off the potential for an appeal. 

The defense gets F*#Ked over twice when they're the ones that didn't mess up.

 

[maven]

Matt, you might consider expressing your feelings a bit more openly. I hear bottling that stuff up is bad for your health.

[agdz59]

Ummm, the defense has to either wait for the runner who scored to enter the dugout or can tag him before he gets there. What's the problem? I'm not seeing it.

[Tborze]

1 hour ago, agdz59 said:

Ummm, the defense has to either wait for the runner who scored to enter the dugout or can tag him before he gets there. What's the problem? I'm not seeing it.

The ball was "dead".

[aaluck]

On 5/21/2021 at 4:34 PM, Senor Azul said:

Mr. aaluck, what I cited was case book play 8.2.2C—what you came back with was rule 8-2-2. Please read my post—I even used the words case book play in describing the citation. In addition I used the proper form for separating case book references with decimal points not hyphens.

I understood that. But why are you using 8.2.2 for a question regarding 8-2-5. This is not the correct rule nor case play for the issue presented. He is not RETOUCHING a base therefore neither 8-2-2 nor 8.2.2 have anything to do with this. This is a missed bag which is covered by rule 8-2-5. 

[Senor Azul]

What we are talking about in this thread is a dead ball appeal. You acknowledged that fact in your first post when you cited rule 2a (actually rule 5-2-2a). The only way the umpire could have called an out in this scenario is to grant a dead ball appeal. I say the umpire mistakenly allowed the appeal too soon—he did not wait for the runner to complete his base running.

Then Mr. noumpere offered case book play 8.2.2M as the closest case play to our discussion (without actually posting it). And I think the most important part of that play is the closing sentence—“R2 may legally return to touch home if he has not touched the steps of the dugout and if a subsequent runner has not yet scored.”

I came along and actually posted his case play and referenced one I thought was even closer to our discussion (8.2.2C). I did not post that case play in its entirety because it is somewhat lengthy so I just posted what I thought was relevant. No matter since you seem to have not read the case play anyway. The case play I referred to you is about a dead ball appeal after the ball went out of play and I really only wanted you to read it for its final sentence—“The defense cannot appeal the missed base if the runner has initiated an attempt to return to the base or until all playing action is over.”

Now it seems you object to the unread case play because you think there is a one-to-one correspondence between the numbering for case plays and rules. I absolutely do not agree with your assertion the controlling authority is rule 8-2-5. I say the applicable rule is 8-2-6c (the dead ball appeal rule).

[Replacematt]

11 hours ago, maven said:

Matt, you might consider expressing your feelings a bit more openly. I hear bottling that stuff up is bad for your health.

You might not be surprised to learn that my post was edited to get down to that level of disdain.

[Mussgrass]

Can the defense initiate what looks like a live ball appeal when the ball is dead? Must a dead ball appeal be a verbal appeal? Would tagging the plate or the runner be a legal appeal when the ball is dead?

My thinking would answer my questions no, yes, no. I may be wrong.

[maven]

2 hours ago, Mussgrass said:

Can the defense initiate what looks like a live ball appeal when the ball is dead?

No.

2 hours ago, Mussgrass said:

Must a dead ball appeal be a verbal appeal?

Yes.

2 hours ago, Mussgrass said:

Would tagging the plate or the runner be a legal appeal when the ball is dead?

Objection: asked and answered.

[The Man in Blue]

On 5/22/2021 at 8:00 AM, Matt said:

So, let's talk about why this ruling (and FED in general) sucks, and is impossible to officiate...

In the OP, the runner did not initiate an attempt until 3-4 steps after missing the base. The ball was not live, so playing action was over at that point. To give him an opportunity to complete his responsibilities (a concept that in my estimation was completed when he missed the base, as he had every chance to advance legally) by this idiotic rule requires that the umpire do something that tips off the potential for an appeal. 

The defense gets F*#Ked over twice when they're the ones that didn't mess up.

 

 

I agree with the underlying sentiments, Matt, but I think the flaw is in the point at which you are defining "playing action" as being over.  Is it over as soon as something happens or not until something happens?  The answer is admittedly wishy-washy and situation dependent.  

I think this case is "ending" play once the baserunners have an adequate opportunity to complete their actions, not as soon as the ball hit the batter (ball becomes dead).  Just because a ball is dead does NOT mean no action happens.  For example, a batter still has to run the bases when they hit a homerun.

I can see your view of it being a disadvantage to the defense as the offense is still allowed to make actions while the defense is not.  However, you could also say view it as the "penalty" for the defense failing to keep the ball live (e.g., hitting a batter or giving up a homerun).  The offense should not be penalized, so they should have full opportunity to complete their actions (hence the defining attribute such as "when a runner reaches the dugout").

[aaluck]

On 5/22/2021 at 8:39 PM, Senor Azul said:

I say the umpire mistakenly allowed the appeal too soon—he did not wait for the runner to complete his base running.

As always I appreciate your input. However, I respectfully disagree with you (and it seems like most others). I think if your 4-5 steps past home plate you have completed your base running. I do not believe you have until 'you get in the dugout" as some have suggested to 'complete your base running'.

As @Matthas stated, this is why there is so much confusion on FED questions poised by guests. Have you ever noticed on Fed questions you have a lot of debate on what should be a simple answer? Here we have a complete guess as to what constituted completed base running--one step, 8 steps, in the dugout--and I guess I see that differently than some, maybe most.  At a trot in from 3rd this kid is probably at least 1/2 way to the dugout, probably more.

[RBIbaseball]

On 5/21/2021 at 1:30 PM, aaluck said:

8.2.5 (bold and underlined) would be the proper rule....wouldn't it?

“ART. 5 . . . If a runner who misses any base (including home plate) or leaves a base too early, desires to return to touch the base, he must do so immediately. If the ball becomes dead and the runner is on or beyond a succeeding base, he cannot return to the missed base and, therefore, is subject to being declared out upon proper and successful appeal.”

Further, 8-2-5 (bold only) seems to indicate that since there is no differentiating as to what caused the dead ball (as you state above) he cannot return as he is beyond his succeeding base.

I know I'm digging up a debate from last week, but I think you got hung up on this 8-2-5 rule, and were kinda ignored on this part of your argument (and your closing comments you cited it again as your reason to respectfully 'agree to disagree')

Two things with your 8-2-5 argument:

1. I think you fail to accurately assess what a succeeding base is. For example, 2nd succeeds 1st, so this rule is saying once you touch 2B, you cannot return to 1B. You can't be beyond a succeeding base, because then you have a new succeeding base... or in this case, no base succeeds home plate.

2. What does immediately mean? If we take it to mean immediately (as in the nearest point in time or instantly), then you could never miss the base by more than one step. As a matter of fact, once you have missed it by a full step you have now passed the threshold of immediate, as surely some measurement of time has passed... now that is silly, I agree. So where do you draw the line? 1 step, 2 steps, 4 steps, before mom yells from the stands?

 

Regardless of how many steps = immediate, the examples cited by @noumpere and @Senor Azul of a player being entitled to return to the missed base prior to a dead ball appeal seem to very relevant here.

Feel free to still disagree, but I wanted to address your 8-2-5 argument, as I don't think succeeding means what you think it means. Either that or it doesn't mean what I think it means.

[maven]

5 hours ago, RBIbaseball said:

1. I think you fail to accurately assess what a succeeding base is. For example, 2nd succeeds 1st, so this rule is saying once you touch 2B, you cannot return to 1B. You can't be beyond a succeeding base, because then you have a new succeeding base... or in this case, no base succeeds home plate.

This is incorrect: the "succeeding" or next base refers to the base beyond the one where the infraction occurred. On your reading, it would be conceptually impossible for a runner to be on a succeeding base, because as soon as he touched a base the next one would be the succeeding base.

5 hours ago, RBIbaseball said:

2. What does immediately mean?

In this context, 'immediately' isn't doing much work, as there is no penalty for a runner failing to return immediately. The point is that a runner who proceeds to the next base without correcting his error is liable to have the opportunity to do so foreclosed (if the ball becomes dead).

[RBIbaseball]

4 hours ago, maven said:

This is incorrect: the "succeeding" or next base refers to the base beyond the one where the infraction occurred. On your reading, it would be conceptually impossible for a runner to be on a succeeding base, because as soon as he touched a base the next one would be the succeeding base.

Oh, yes good point. Thank you. In context to the infraction, that is correct, and I should have stopped there.

Other than that, my point stands as I interpreted the OPs understanding to be that the base the runner missed was the succeeding base. Also, I claimed that there is no succeeding base to home plate which the OP used as justification in applying that rule.

[aaluck]

On 5/31/2021 at 1:28 AM, RBIbaseball said:

Feel free to still disagree, but I wanted to address your 8-2-5 argument, as I don't think succeeding means what you think it means. Either that or it doesn't mean what I think it means.

You are correct. I misspoke and should have stated missed base, not succeeding base.  Succeeding has no application here.

My issue with this is I believe there was a proper appeal AFTER he was given full opportunity to complete his base running responsibilities.

On 5/21/2021 at 2:00 PM, aaluck said:

c. Dead Ball. The dead-ball appeal may be made: 1) Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called, a coach or any defensive player, with or without the ball, may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base....

As an umpire if I see this play in the OP I am calling that a 'verbal' appeal by a defensive player, because there is no other reason to tag him. Not that it would matter to me but I'm 99% sure the kid that tagged R3 said something like 'he missed the bag' as he tagged him. And under FED rules that is enough, nothing more needs to be said or done.