Baseball

[Guest ed@nationrx.com]

1. If the batter runner beats the throw to first but steps over first base (doesn't touch it) is the runner out or safe? If he is safe, is it now an appeal play?

2. If a runner misses home plate and the runner does not step into the dead ball area, can the catcher while in possession of the ball step on home plate and appeal stating runner missed home plate? Would runner be out.

Thanks,

Ed 

 

[Tborze]

Yes to both. In number two, if the runner attempts to touch home plate, he must be tagged.

[LMSANS]

1. Yes; Yes

2. Rule set will be a determining factor here. The runner can return before leaving the circle around the plate (OBR), NFHS is dead ball area/dugout. The appeal can be touching the plate while in possession of the ball or tag the runner.

[Guest back to question #1]

Is the runner out or safe? 

[Rich Ives]

13 minutes ago, Guest back to question #1 said:

Is the runner out or safe? 

On the play at 1B: Safe until appealed.

 

[isired]

Is the runner out or safe? 

In your first example, presumably the window of time for an appeal is tight - the runner is coming back to the base after overrunning if he's not called out. He's not out unless he's tagged or the base is tagged before he gets to the base, (regardless of whether that happens from home to first or after overrunning and missing the bag).

So he's not out, but I don't know that I'd say he's safe (as in safe at first) until he's touched the bag.

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, Guest back to question #1 said:

Is the runner out or safe? 

In the first base play, if the runner missed the base, and then F3 caught the ball with his foot on the bag he could simply look at the ump and say "he missed the base"...that would class as an appeal and then the runner would be out.   If the runner, on overrunning first, safely returns to first base before any tag or indication of appeal, he'd be safe, having completed his obligation to touch the base.

[isired]

In the first base play, if the runner missed the base, and then F3 caught the ball with his foot on the bag he could simply look at the ump and say "he missed the base"...that would class as an appeal and then the runner would be out.   If the runner, on overrunning first, safely returns to first base before any tag or indication of appeal, he'd be safe, having completed his obligation to touch the base.

Would he even have to do that? If the umpire saw that the runner never touched first I would think he'd make an out call once the ball was caught, and some explanation that the runner missed the bag (similar to the explanation when F3 is pulled off the bag when the throw beats the runner).

[Tborze]

16 minutes ago, isired said:

 

Would he even have to do that? If the umpire saw that the runner never touched first I would think he'd make an out call once the ball was caught, and some explanation that the runner missed the bag (similar to the explanation when F3 is pulled off the bag when the throw beats the runner).

 

The appeal must be unmistakable. 

[beerguy55]

19 minutes ago, isired said:

 

Would he even have to do that? If the umpire saw that the runner never touched first I would think he'd make an out call once the ball was caught, and some explanation that the runner missed the bag (similar to the explanation when F3 is pulled off the bag when the throw beats the runner).

 

Once the runner passes the bag, assuming he beat the ball, the defense must appeal that he missed the base...that appeal must be intentional, and, in some way, evident to the umpires that the defense knows they're appealing.   You can't appeal by accident or happenstance.

[Velho]

What is the mechanic on the initial 1B fly by? (I'd like to specifically know LL-  @Rich Ives thoughts?) 

[noumpere]

it used to be "safe" if R1 had passed the bag; then wait for the appeal.

Now it's officially been reported as "no call" -- just like at home.  But, there are also reports that some instructors are still teaching the former.

 

Personally, I prefer the former.

[Rich Ives]

6 minutes ago, Velho said:

What is the mechanic on the initial 1B fly by? (I'd like to specifically know LL-  @Rich Ives thoughts?) 

Don't know the latest LL.  Used to be signal safe but MLB changed to a no-call recently and LL may have too,

[Senor Azul]

What is the mechanic on the initial 1B fly by? (I'd like to specifically know LL-)

I made a cursory check of the rule changes for 2019-2021 and found nothing relevant had changed. From the 2019 LL Rules Instruction Manual rule 7.10

7.10 - Any runner shall be called out on appeal if –

(b) with the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, the runner fails to touch each base in order before said runner, or a missed base, is tagged;

INSTRUCTOR’S COMMENTS:

➔ A common play that confuses many is when a throw is made to first base to retire a batter-runner that misses first. If the ball arrives after the batter-runner has missed first and advanced past first. This is now an appeal play, since the runner is considered as having touched a base when they move past a base until such time he/she is appealed.

[isired]

What is the mechanic on the initial 1B fly by? (I'd like to specifically know LL-)
I made a cursory check of the rule changes for 2019-2021 and found nothing relevant had changed. From the 2019 LL Rules Instruction Manual rule 7.10
7.10 - Any runner shall be called out on appeal if –
(b) with the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, the runner fails to touch each base in order before said runner, or a missed base, is tagged;
INSTRUCTOR’S COMMENTS:
➔ A common play that confuses many is when a throw is made to first base to retire a batter-runner that misses first. If the ball arrives after the batter-runner has missed first and advanced past first. This is now an appeal play, since the runner is considered as having touched a base when they move past a base until such time he/she is appealed.

Thanks for that, really answers all aspects of the OP's interesting first query.

Follow-up - if the play 'concludes' and for whatever reason time is out, yet the baserunner has not yet gone back to first base:
- the defensive team has to go through the process of getting the pitcher the ball, stepping off, throwing to first and making the appeal
- all R1 has to do is step on first, and can do so while the ball is dead?

In other words, R1, upon seeing that there will be an appeal, can just get to the base while the D is going through tge motions to make a proper appeal?

[i know some rule sets allow dead ball appeals, but most don't, right?]

[maven]

1 hour ago, isired said:

[i know some rule sets allow dead ball appeals, but most don't, right?]

Among major codes, only FED allows a dead-ball appeal.

[isired]

Among major codes, only FED allows a dead-ball appeal.

OK, so not an issue in FED. Just seems like, in other codes, the BR screws up and has an edge over the D because of the live ball issue. Just one of those things I guess, I've never seen this happen in 40 years of playing/umpiring/coaching/watching youth baseball.

[beerguy55]

14 hours ago, isired said:

Follow-up - if the play 'concludes' and for whatever reason time is out, yet the baserunner has not yet gone back to first base:
- the defensive team has to go through the process of getting the pitcher the ball, stepping off, throwing to first and making the appeal
- all R1 has to do is step on first, and can do so while the ball is dead?

 

12 minutes ago, isired said:

the BR screws up and has an edge over the D because of the live ball issue

Sure...but apply this practically....the most likely reason the play is dead is the ball got thrown out of play (so, that's on the defense)...now BR goes to second...if he still hasn't touched first, then the appeal isn't a problem.

Any other scenario there's presumably some time before the ball has been killed for the defense to not only notice BR missed the base, but do something about it.  If defense doesn't notice, it's moot...if they do notice presumably they're going to do something about it promptly. 

An injury is really the only other plausible time this would come up.

I would also hope the BU, knowing BR missed the base, does not grant time...especially if the offense asks for it...and if the defense asks for it, then that's on them, isn't it?

[noumpere]

30 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

 

Sure...but apply this practically....the most likely reason the play is dead is the ball got thrown out of play (so, that's on the defense)...now BR goes to second...if he still hasn't touched first, then the appeal isn't a problem.

Any other scenario there's presumably some time before the ball has been killed for the defense to not only notice BR missed the base, but do something about it.  If defense doesn't notice, it's moot...if they do notice presumably they're going to do something about it promptly. 

An injury is really the only other plausible time this would come up.

I would also hope the BU, knowing BR missed the base, does not grant time...especially if the offense asks for it...and if the defense asks for it, then that's on them, isn't it?

ANd, "time" wouldn't be granted (or shouldn't be granted) if the defense is indicating they want to make an appeal, or if BR is heading back to first.

[isired]

I would also hope the BU, knowing BR missed the base, does not grant time...especially if the offense asks for it...and if the defense asks for it, then that's on them, isn't it?

Good points, thank you!