Ump admitting wide strike zone.

[Guest Coach Bill]

We have an umpire from hell that we seem to get every third tournament. I promise you I'm not an ass and have never been kicked out. (For the record - I always show umpires high respect when playing.) I believe most umpires are not partial and want to make the right call. We have one that is known throughout our organization of always going against our teams. I didn't believe it until seeing it for myself and being flabbergasted. It's quite ridiculous. No matter how many complaints, he's always there and has been for years. He proudly gives this speech before every game of how he calls a wide strike zone. Last time I asked him "so I know what to tell my kids, how wide are we talking?"  Surprisingly, he told me a ball. (Well by the way - I can't stand this - but I'll normally accept it and just play on.) Well he is so awful, I want to make a point next time we have him. If he gives this speech I'm going to ask him again, "are we still talking a ball out?" "Any other of your own rules you use that we should be aware of or is it just a ball out?" So this time I want to properly protest even if I lose. I'll take out my $100 bill, because I want to make a point. When and how should do it? I can't find anywhere where the ump has "his strike zone." 

[Guest Coach Bill]

1 minute ago, Umpire in Chief said:

Back on point. Though several of you have given me a good laugh.

All associations have "That umpire." Due to umpire shortages some associations/TD's get stuck with that guy and his antics may be known, but if it comes to not being able to fill a spot or using "That guy" they will often use him and pray for the best. They will generally work him at the lower levels, like the 10-11 y/o you mention, where he can presumably do the least damage. You writing about his pregame speech, pretty much tells me he's "That guy." 

My first suggestion is to have a conversation with the TD about using this guy. Make sure the umpire association you work with knows you'd prefer not to have him. These are the people with the most control of using the umpires. Find out if he's freelance or being assigned as an association. A freelancer might be harder to avoid, but if he's assigned through an association, find out from the TD which associations they use before you register. I've had coaches tell me before they find out where the umps are coming from when registering. Let them know you're playing at an elite level and you don't want them using second rate umpires. I don't know specifically about your area, but around here there are seemingly numerous tournaments in that age group every weekend. Take your business elsewhere. Just remember you may end up paying more. My local association, for example, is the most expensive in the area, but we have the best training of the other 2 groups and because we pay more we get more umpires coming to us. Not to say we don't have "that guy" because we probably have several of "those guys." 

Protesting, would be a waste of your time and money until you have a true misapplication of the rules. Strike zones and other judgement calls are not protestable. 

As for the zone, at the 10-11 y/o level any umpire has to be out there looking for strikes; and yes, that does mean expanding the zone from the textbook definition. The key is good umpires know how to expand the zone without being ridiculous. I'll bet good money that the umpires you like best and look forward to them working your games are also expanding the zone, they just know how to do it well and don't make a spectacle out of letting people know what they're doing.

The judgement of the umpire's zone is something that pitchers and catchers will have to deal with at all levels; recognizing an umpire is calling a particular zone or location and not only  working with it but taking advantage of it. This umpire is getting the high ones,  this guy is giving a little extra on the outside, or this guy is being tight on the inside. Use these things to your advantage. I've heard catchers telling their teams what to expect from the ump.  I've even had a D-II catcher tell me once after I called a strike on the corner, "I knew you'd like that." acknowledging that if he hits that spot he knows I'm going to call it. 

I hope this helps. 

It does. You are spot on. Thank you.  I'm protesting to send a message to the TD that they have to find better. I know I'll likely lose my $100. I'm not protesting balls and strikes - I'm protesting that he is using a rule that is not in the book and he admitted it. I'm only doing this because he is against us regardless of people believing it or not, and they need to replace him. 

[JSam21]

10 minutes ago, Guest Coach Bill said:

I bet you're proud of that fancy-smancy ring up move you do.

Naw... more proud that I don’t have to work 11u “elite” travel ball.

[JSam21]

6 minutes ago, Guest Coach Bill said:

It does. You are spot on. Thank you.  I'm protesting to send a message to the TD that they have to find better. I know I'll likely lose my $100. I'm not protesting balls and strikes - I'm protesting that he is using a rule that is not in the book and he admitted it. I'm only doing this because he is against us regardless of people believing it or not, and they need to replace him. 

So if he called the same zone but didn’t say he was you wouldn’t have a problem?

Balls and strikes are solely a judgement call regardless of what he says at the plate meeting.

[grayhawk]

1 minute ago, Guest Coach Bill said:

It does. You are spot on. Thank you.  I'm protesting to send a message to the TD that they have to find better. I know I'll likely lose my $100. I'm not protesting balls and strikes - I'm protesting that he is using a rule that is not in the book and he admitted it. I'm only doing this because he is against us regardless of people believing it or not, and they need to replace him. 

You do realize that pulling out that c-note at the plate meeting and trying to lodge a protest is, by rule, incorrect.  You have to protest an actual misapplication of a rule, not merely that an umpire says he will misapply one.  I think it's been made clear in this thread that this is the wrong approach anyway.  The ONLY way to get this guy off your games is to speak with the person that assigns him.  Even a TD won't really be helpful as they don't actually assign the umpires.  I strongly suggest you don't go down the "biased against us" path.  That just sounds like sour grapes.  Incompetence is much more believable than malice.  If he's incompetent, the assigner already knows it and may give you what you seek.

[Guest Coach Bill]

4 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

You do realize that pulling out that c-note at the plate meeting and trying to lodge a protest is, by rule, incorrect.  You have to protest an actual misapplication of a rule, not merely that an umpire says he will misapply one.  I think it's been made clear in this thread that this is the wrong approach anyway.  The ONLY way to get this guy off your games is to speak with the person that assigns him.  Even a TD won't really be helpful as they don't actually assign the umpires.  I strongly suggest you don't go down the "biased against us" path.  That just sounds like sour grapes.  Incompetence is much more believable than malice.  If he's incompetent, the assigner already knows it and may give you what you seek.

Yes, I get it. That's why I was asking when to do it? You are correct, the TD has done very little, but we are limited in Majors Tournaments without traveling. I figured I'd do it after a ball and strike, ask him if it was in his "ball out" zone. Then protest. I'm partially doing this for my parents too, because everyone cringes when we get this guy. We used to get a guy that would show up drunk and he was better. 

[grayhawk]

2 minutes ago, Guest Coach Bill said:

Yes, I get it. That's why I was asking when to do it? You are correct, the TD has done very little, but we are limited in Majors Tournaments without traveling. I figured I'd do it after a ball and strike, ask him if it was in his "ball out" zone. Then protest. I'm partially doing this for my parents too, because everyone cringes when we get this guy. We used to get a guy that would show up drunk and he was better. 

So who assigns the umpires for the tournaments that you play in?

[HokieUmp]

31 minutes ago, Guest Coach Bill said:

Where did I say that a ball that clips the black is a wide zone? Please show me. I perfectly understand the strike zone and that the ball just needs to graze a piece of the edge. I'm saying, I accept a half ball outside of that. If you're calling strikes a whole ball outside of that - you're a bad umpire. Period. This guy will be up to two balls outside of that and call strikes and I'm not exaggerating. Is he the only one? No. I've seen it before as we all have. Can someone tell me the rule where it says, "widen the strike zone if you feel like it?" I'll tell my players to swing a ball off the plate with two strikes and they can place a ball where a ball outside the zone is. And, yes, they can hit it. 

I get your point with 10 and 11 year olds - but my point is these pitchers, including ours, don't need that help. They throw hard and can throw 60% strikes with a normal strike zone. When they are also getting a ball plus on the inside and outside, it's becomes a game of who is going to get the one or two hits, or hit a batter or walk. When I say 2k's an inning, this is pitching against some of the top ranked teams in the country, not teams that can't hit. 

So do you actually think calling a true ball or more outside is good? 

The quote:  "I can accept a half ball out of the zone, but when you start calling a ball out, a ball in, a ball up and a ball down, you've expanded the strike zone 60-70%. To say "I have a wide zone" is a cop out, because you've made the zone subjective."  Bolded emphasis yours, as I just cut-and-pasted.

Maybe it's a terminology disconnect, but that quote equates a ball in every direction equates to a wide zone - at least in the "out" direction.  That ball that grazes the zone is a ball out, to me, at least, and from what I'm seeing here, I ain't alone.  To be more conciliatory than is my wont, I will say we might be talking at cross-purposes here.

But for a less conciliatory part, see the part I marked in green.  My response:  GFY.  Period.

I say that for several reasons:  1) as I mentioned before, MiLB guys - pretty current ones - are saying that grown-ass, PAID players, have an expectation of 2 balls off the plate.  If you, your combination Spartans/SEAL Team Sixers, or your spy behind the plate (from like 25 posts ago) can't hang with that on the outside, when those dudes can, then yeah, that's problematic.  2) By your criteria, I'm a bad umpire.  Except for one problem:  I'm good at what I do.  Really pretty good, actually.  If you knew me or my life, you would know that I'm not exactly the biggest braggart about my success, my life, my job, or my career in a broader sense, but I allow myself a decent measure of ego when it comes to umpiring.  I'm not gonna flash my resume or background, because I know there are guys that could match or beat it handily here, but I can do this gig, and I KNOW there's nothing your kids would show me that would make me back down One.  Step.

So I'll leave the the nicer responses to the nicer people on the board, like the boss (Umpire In Chief) and Biscuit, since they're generally nicer than me.  But you got what you got - people have said it:  "you got proof?  take it to someone"  or "go to other tournaments, if you can avoid this guy/others" (if it's a wider issue).  That's what you can do, and that's mostly it.   Take what you need from it.

[Guest Coach Bill]

22 minutes ago, Biscuit said:

And Bill, I'm gonna try to explain the reaction you're getting here. You have to understand that you're coming in with an anonymous account, trashing an umpire, and asking other umpires how to make that umpire look bad. We're gonna get a little defensive under those circumstances, and we tend to protect our own. I have no problem saying an umpire sucks if he does and is unwilling to learn or change (which, if what you're saying is true, is the case for this guy), but many umpires do, and you can't fault them for that!

Another thing you have to understand, is that coaches are often the worst part of our jobs, especially at select ball levels. Many (But certainly not all. We have a few coaches on this board, @beerguy55 and @Rich Ives for example, who provide very valuable information and are very knowledgeable) are completely ignorant of the rules, baseball, and reality. They scapegoat us, and yell at us. Now, there are some that are great to work with, and cause no problems, but they're overshadowed by the less savory ones. Combine all this with the above, and you can start to see why your post may have been taken the way it was

I do get that. I use a guest pass because I get too much email as it is and hate registering for things. I do respect umpiring when I coach and just know they go both ways. Really support you guys and know how hard it is. I'm not attacking umpires at all. Just dealing with one genuinely bad apple and wanted advice. 

[JSam21]

4 minutes ago, Guest Coach Bill said:

Yes, I get it. That's why I was asking when to do it? You are correct, the TD has done very little, but we are limited in Majors Tournaments without traveling. I figured I'd do it after a ball and strike, ask him if it was in his "ball out" zone. Then protest. I'm partially doing this for my parents too, because everyone cringes when we get this guy. We used to get a guy that would show up drunk and he was better. 

You can’t protest balls and strikes... point blank simple 

[The Man in Blue]

7 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

I've said this before and will most likely have to say to say it again some time:

WHY DO YOU EXPECT A SMALL KID WITH A SHORT BAT TO BE ABLE REACH AN OUTSIDE PITCH?

 

The same reason I expect a small kid to be able to throw a 3 inch sphere through a theoretical 2 foot by 2 1/2 foot box from 50+ feet away.  

[Biscuit]

8 minutes ago, Guest Coach Bill said:

Yes, I get it. That's why I was asking when to do it? You are correct, the TD has done very little, but we are limited in Majors Tournaments without traveling. I figured I'd do it after a ball and strike, ask him if it was in his "ball out" zone. Then protest. I'm partially doing this for my parents too, because everyone cringes when we get this guy. We used to get a guy that would show up drunk and he was better. 

I STRONGLY ADVISE AGAINST DOING THIS. I WOULD WARN THEN EJECT YOU. IT'S NOT A GOOD IDEA.

The only way you can protest this, is to do basically what you described. Ask him if it caught the plate, and if he responds the wrong way (yes on a ball, no on a strike), then you have grounds to protest. I highly doubt you're going to get him to admit anything... And see my warning above. 

In addition, this does nothing for you. Unless you're going to ask him every pitch you disagree with, he continues to give you protestable answers, and you continue to protest, you've now protested one ball or strike call. No protest committee is going to order a replay (or anything else) based on one pitch. 

[The Man in Blue]

6 hours ago, Guest Coach Bill said:

In most instances we just adjust. And truthfully, I've seen others just as bad. I admittedly am using his "I call a wide zone" speech against him, because I'm done giving him more chances to be fair. 

His strike zone is a little more consistent than his in field calls. But my guy who sits behind the plate and is realistic says it's about 1/2 ball difference for us and he uses his "bigger zone" as an excuse. Do we get some? Yes. The same pitches? No. That's why I call it a cop out. But his calls in the field are egregious and he treats us that way. He's jovial with other coaches but is always arrogant against coaches in our program from the second of the home plate meeting. I had never met him and felt it right away. When a coach from the other team tells you after the game - "I felt for you, because I've never seen it so obvious an ump having it out for someone." That was in the first game we had him. I've had him several times since and it's always the same. 

I'm seriously not an umpire complainer, but we've got our first tournament of the season coming up and here we go again. I need to send a message to the TD. Maybe I'll get tossed for the first time. 

 

I think it has become evident where the bias is.

There is so much to unpack in your posts that I am not going to begin to try.  I started a laundry list, but it got way too long.  Let me just skip to this:

You are aware having “a guy who sits behind the plate” is illegal, correct?  Never mind.  Good luck with acting like a horse’s butt and getting tossed out since that seems to be what you are aiming for.

 

[Guest Coach Bill]

4 minutes ago, HokieUmp said:

That ball that grazes the zone is a ball out, to me, at least, and from what I'm seeing here, I ain't alone.  To be more conciliatory than is my wont, I will say we might be talking at cross-purposes here.

 

Well there is where we have the disconnect. I'm talking a ball out to him is much more than a full ball out of grazing the edge. I'm suggesting that in the colored plate photo above, the brown is a ball out. He's calling the zone well outside the brown. 

[The Man in Blue]

9 hours ago, LRZ said:

Coach Bill, what you describe does not support this contention.

Depending on the age and skill level, the strike zone of your nemesis may well be common practice to avoid a walk-a-thon, as long as his strike zone is consistent and he calls it that way for both teams. When you see him on one of your games, tell your kids to be prepared to swing the bat.

 

 

That^

Strikes aren’t pitches that are hittable.  Balls aren’t pitches that aren’t hittable.  Not all strikes should be hit and not all balls should be looked at.

[grayhawk]

2 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

I think it has become evident where the bias is.

There is so much to unpack in your posts that I am not going to begin to try.  I started a laundry list, but it got way too long.  Let me just skip to this:

You are aware having “a guy who sits behind the plate” is illegal, correct?  Never mind.  Good luck with acting like a horse’s butt and getting tossed out since that seems to be what you are aiming for.

 

His guy is almost certainly a parent with a video camera.

[Guest Coach Bill]

3 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

His guy is almost certainly a parent with a video camera.

Whatever it takes. 

[Guest Coach Bill]

11 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

I think it has become evident where the bias is.

There is so much to unpack in your posts that I am not going to begin to try.  I started a laundry list, but it got way too long.  Let me just skip to this:

You are aware having “a guy who sits behind the plate” is illegal, correct?  Never mind.  Good luck with acting like a horse’s butt and getting tossed out since that seems to be what you are aiming for.

 

The bias is that all umpires are always right. Isn't that what you are saying? Just deal with a bad one. You need evidence, but don't record with a video. Y'all can't stand that some of you are just bad. Talk about confirmation bias. If you asked umpires if you are a better than the average umpire, 90% would think they are better than average. Unfortunately, that's not how the math works. I get that most coaches don't know the rules. I get that coaches are where you end up with arguments. I've never been tossed and have only been warned a few times after doing this for years. One of those warnings was me asking my catcher where he set up. 

[HokieUmp]

15 minutes ago, Guest Coach Bill said:

The bias is that all umpires are always right.

It's weird, right?  You go on an umpire site - one where people actually DO care about the craft of umpiring - to rip a dude, and then enlist us in how to make him look like a [redacted] at a future game with some grandstanding protest (when the game hasn't started, ergo, nothing to protest yet).  And when the not-unsurprising feedback comes out, it's OUR fault.  (By the way, if you asked coaches 'are you better than the average coach,' 90% would say they are, so ..... yeah.)

Huh.  That IS weird.

(Not gonna lie - I REALLY hope you're with a program somewhere here in Texas.)

[Guest Coach Bill]

31 minutes ago, Biscuit said:

I STRONGLY ADVISE AGAINST DOING THIS. I WOULD WARN THEN EJECT YOU. IT'S NOT A GOOD IDEA.

The only way you can protest this, is to do basically what you described. Ask him if it caught the plate, and if he responds the wrong way (yes on a ball, no on a strike), then you have grounds to protest. I highly doubt you're going to get him to admit anything... And see my warning above. 

In addition, this does nothing for you. Unless you're going to ask him every pitch you disagree with, he continues to give you protestable answers, and you continue to protest, you've now protested one ball or strike call. No protest committee is going to order a replay (or anything else) based on one pitch. 

Thanks for how to do it. His arrogance will have him fall for me asking him  " is that what you mean by calling one ball out?"  By him describing it to me, he's not that smart. He's surely not here like the rest of you working on his craft. Y'all are good at beating up coaches. LOL 

[Guest Coach Bill]

8 minutes ago, HokieUmp said:

 

(Not gonna lie - I REALLY hope you're with a program somewhere here in Texas.)

Oh - so you guys do end up having it out for coaches and programs. I really thought you tried to get the calls right. I guess I was wrong. 

[The Man in Blue]

[Biscuit]

5 minutes ago, Guest Coach Bill said:

Thanks for how to do it. His arrogance will have him fall for me asking him  " is that what you mean by calling one ball out?"  By him describing it to me, he's not that smart. He's surely not here like the rest of you working on his craft. Y'all are good at beating up coaches. LOL 

Again, I highly, highly, recommend against it, but yes you can. I have a hard time imagining that he'll continue answering in a way that leads to a protestable situation once you protest once. Remember, once the next pitch is thrown, or play made, your ability to protest is gone, so you can't protest multiple pitches at once... Which I advise against doing even once.

Just now, Guest Coach Bill said:

Oh - so you guys do end up having it out for coaches and programs. I really thought you tried to get the calls right. I guess I was wrong. 

I'll put it this way. It's possible to dislike a coach, and feel some satisfaction putting them in their place without changing your judgement. 

Honestly Bill, talk to those in charge of tournaments and umpires for tournaments in your area. If that doesn't do anything... Drop it. You've now come onto our site as, quite literally, a guest, asked our opinions (which to be fair, I think some were predicated on a false understanding), only accepted those you wanted to hear, and now have called the integrity of all umpired into question. You're letting emotions cloud your view. 

@Umpire in Chief, @Thunderheads and the rest of the mods, maybe time to shut this one down? 

[Guest Coach Bill]

49 minutes ago, Biscuit said:

Again, I highly, highly, recommend against it, but yes you can. I have a hard time imagining that he'll continue answering in a way that leads to a protestable situation once you protest once. Remember, once the next pitch is thrown, or play made, your ability to protest is gone, so you can't protest multiple pitches at once... Which I advise against doing even once.

I'll put it this way. It's possible to dislike a coach, and feel some satisfaction putting them in their place without changing your judgement. 

Honestly Bill, talk to those in charge of tournaments and umpires for tournaments in your area. If that doesn't do anything... Drop it. You've now come onto our site as, quite literally, a guest, asked our opinions (which to be fair, I think some were predicated on a false understanding), only accepted those you wanted to hear, and now have called the integrity of all umpired into question. You're letting emotions cloud your view. 

@Umpire in Chief, @Thunderheads and the rest of the mods, maybe time to shut this one down? 

Thank you Biscuit. I'm probably going to do it once. But appreciate your candor. I'm a mostly non-emotional coach but this guy gets me going. When people were snide, I got a little chippy back in here. But I do respect you guys. I'll respectfully drop it now. Thanks again. 

[LMSANS]

Wow 3 pages. I’m going to agree with biscuit and shut down. 

[Thunderheads]

Coach Bill, ....

This is locked, but I'm a moderator/administrator, so I can add a response:

Take the advice of many; go and find out who ASSIGNS THE UMPIRES TO YOUR TOURNAMENTS.  It's easy, ask one of the umpires you have a rapport with, they'll tell you.  Then lodge your complaint and request to not have him anymore.   If he's truly that bad, lodging your complaint to the assignor shouldn't be worth the effort.

Also, as others have said (and yes, I read your comments that he's calling pitches WAY outside) ... strikes and balls are judgement calls, so are outs and safes.  They have parameters in the rulebook, but they're considered judgement calls.  Thus, again as others have pointed out, can't be 'protested'.  That said, you need proof (something ELSE others have said), especially when you've said that he's calling balls&strikes worse against your team than others.  My point is, it's very difficult to get proof, so I re-direct you to my first comment about the assignor.

On a final note, I'm glad to see that you've reiterated a few times that you respect what we do and you know that most of us do a good job and take pride in what we do.  However, to REALLY FEEL what it's like, make arrangements to put on the gear, and actually see pitches from an umpires perspective.  Again something that's not that hard to set up, but very worth it, trust me!

You can also take it a step further and when you speak with the assignor for your tournaments, ask him about umpire camps/ clinics in your area and attend one.  BE the umpire, really understand the other side.   Based on other members who have already been mentioned ( @beerguy55, and @Rich Ives) ...when you understand the other side, it helps you become a better coach.

Good luck