Fake tag

[Gfoley4 85]

https://v.redd.it/2psfie4rsyc31 

Just checking, in the FED level this would be obstruction and runner awarded third?

[The Man in Blue 126]

NFHS, most definitely obstruction.

Rule 2 Playing Terms and Definitions

SECTION 22 OBSTRUCTION AND FAKE TAG

ART. 1 . . . Obstruction is an act (intentional or unintentional, as well as physical or verbal) by a fielder, any member of the defensive team or its team personnel that hinders a runner or changes the pattern of play as in 5-1-3 and 8-3-2; or when a catcher or fielder hinders a batter as in 5-1-2b, 8-1-1e, 8-3-1c and 8-3-2. When obstruction occurs, the ball becomes dead at the end of playing action and the umpire has authority to determine which base or bases shall be awarded the runners according to the rule violated (Exceptions 8-4-2c, 8-4-2d).

ART. 2. . . A fake tag is an act by a defensive player without the ball that simulates a tag. A fake tag is considered obstruction.

ART. 3 . . . The fielder without possession of the ball denies access to the base the runner is attempting to achieve.

 

[beerguy55 495]

A little surprised Baez didn't get one in earhole his next at bat.

[Umpire in Chief 1,544]

I put this on the U-E Facebook page last night with the question "Do you have obstruction for a fake tag?" Just to see what sort of responses came out of it...

http://facebook.com/UmpireEmpire/

[grayhawk 3,570]

20 hours ago, Gfoley4 said:

https://v.redd.it/2psfie4rsyc31 

Just checking, in the FED level this would be obstruction and runner awarded third?

Yes.  In addition, it's a team warning and the next offender is ejected from the game.

[grayhawk 3,570]

7 minutes ago, Umpire in Chief said:

I put this on the U-E Facebook page last night with the question "Do you have obstruction for a fake tag?" Just to see what sort of responses came out of it...

http://facebook.com/UmpireEmpire/

But, but...he never actually touched him with the glove!  SMH.

[humanbackstop19 37]

Neither FED or OBR books clearly define "tag".  However, NCAA defines a tag as:  (abbreviated)

"touching a runner with the ball or with the glove while holding the ball securely and firmly in that hand or glove"

That definition makes a physical contact with the glove necessary.  In the Baez play, he never actually touches the runner.  He only fakes having possession of the ball.  

FED does declare a runner out when : 8-4-h: is touched by a live ball securely held by a fielder or is touched by a fielder's glove or hand with the live ball held thierin, while a baserunner is not touching his base.  

Simply put, Baez never touched the guy, so how is it a tag, real or fake?  

I do agree that you could call type 2 OBS as the runner was coming back into second base and Baez impeded his progress there.  It would be a huge stretch to award third on this play.  

[The Man in Blue 126]

NFHS ... looks pretty well defined to me.

Rule 2 Playing Terms and Definitions

SECTION 22 OBSTRUCTION AND FAKE TAG

ART. 2. . . A fake tag is an act by a defensive player without the ball that simulates a tag. A fake tag is considered obstruction.

SECTION 24 OUT: FORCE-OUT, PUTOUT, STRIKEOUT, TAG OUT, THROW-OUT

ART. 4 . . . A tag out is the put out of a runner, including the batter-runner, who is not in contact with his base when touched with a live ball, or with the glove or hand when the live ball is held securely therein by a fielder. The ball is not considered as having been securely held if it is juggled or dropped after the touching, unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand of the fielder (8-4-2h2).

Did Baez have the ball?  No, so there cannot be a tag.  Did he move to touch the runner as if he did have the ball (simulate a tag)?  Yes.  Obstruction in NFHS.  “Simulate” is the key word ... he didn’t have to touch him, he just had to act like he did have the ball and was making a tag.

[maven 4,432]

FED Definitions:

2-22-2: A fake tag is an act by a defensive player without the ball that ­simulates a tag. A fake tag is considered obstruction.

2-24-4: A tag out is the put out of a runner, including the batter-runner, who is not in contact with his base when touched with a live ball, or with the glove or hand when the live ball is held securely therein by a fielder. The ball is not ­considered as having been securely held if it is juggled or dropped after the touching, unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand of the ­fielder (8-4-2h2).

Physical contact with the runner is required for a tag, not a fake tag.

[noumpere 2,935]

3 hours ago, humanbackstop19 said:

Neither BOTH  FED or OBR books clearly define "tag".  However, NCAA defines a tag as:  (abbreviated)

"

FIFY

 

I am having internet issues, so I am not going to try to d/l the OBR rules book, but tag is clearly defined.

Since it's a "fake tag" a touch / contact is not needed -- that's one of the ways to fake.  (However, I haven't seen the specific play in question).  A "fake tag" is legal in OBR, and used all the time.

[beerguy55 495]

18 hours ago, noumpere said:

.  A "fake tag" is legal in OBR, and used all the time.

I'd challenge that - even at amateur levels using OBR.  It's generally viewed as "bush league" and often leads to retaliation if/when used.  Especially when it forces a player to slide who otherwise didn't need to.  I'd speculate that's the primary reason the safety-oriented FED prohibits it.  In my experience, even when it is allowed by rule,  kids who do it do it once, and learn one way or the other not to do it again - most coaches will "have a teachable moment" with one of their players if they do it (there are exceptions, of course).

Right or wrong, it's viewed differently from a fake catch/throw (a la Knoblauch in the WS on Lonnie Smith)...or the fake "I got it" to make a fielder hesitate thinking he might have to tag up - those are seen "all the time"...the fake tag, not so much.   Keeping in mind, for teams that go back and forth between FED and OBR rule sets, it would be a very small number of players/coaches who would say "hey, we're playing OBR this weekend, we can do fake tags!!!"

 

Now, the fake tag in the video is different and is used to make the player not realize the ball went into the outfield, and as such is used like the typical fake catch/glove slap move...and could have very well had an adverse effect for the infielder...as, the runner could have opted to run away from the fielder, who would have no ball to throw to third base.

[Senor Azul 334]

I stumbled upon the following case play from the FED while searching for something else and I think it adds a bit of a wrinkle to this thread.

2015 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 19: Caught in a rundown between home and third, R2 is returning to third base when the catcher throws the ball to the third baseman who is covering the base. The third baseman does not catch the ball, which is caught by the shortstop who is backing up the play behind third base. Everyone else, including the third baseman, believes the third baseman has the ball when he tags R2 as he slides back into third base. The third baseman shows the umpire an empty glove and is confused as R2 safely slides into third base. The offensive head coach wants the umpire to declare a fake tag and award R2 home. RULING: This is not a fake tag. The third baseman simply did not catch the ball. (2-22-2)

[The Man in Blue 126]

Not a wrinkle in my opinion ... a fake tag is a simulated motion intentionally meant to entice the runner into changing an action.  The third baseman was not simulating an action, he was making an actual play despite his error.  It also did not entice the runner into a changing his action as the runner was already trying to beat the throw back to third.  

 

Though I can see the reason to make that a case play.

[Thunderheads 2,700]

On 7/31/2019 at 2:46 PM, beerguy55 said:

I'd challenge that - even at amateur levels using OBR.  It's generally viewed as "bush league" and often leads to retaliation if/when used.  Especially when it forces a player to slide who otherwise didn't need to.  I'd speculate that's the primary reason the safety-oriented FED prohibits it.  In my experience, even when it is allowed by rule,  kids who do it do it once, and learn one way or the other not to do it again - most coaches will "have a teachable moment" with one of their players if they do it (there are exceptions, of course).

Right or wrong, it's viewed differently from a fake catch/throw (a la Knoblauch in the WS on Lonnie Smith)...or the fake "I got it" to make a fielder hesitate thinking he might have to tag up - those are seen "all the time"...the fake tag, not so much.   Keeping in mind, for teams that go back and forth between FED and OBR rule sets, it would be a very small number of players/coaches who would say "hey, we're playing OBR this weekend, we can do fake tags!!!"

 

Now, the fake tag in the video is different and is used to make the player not realize the ball went into the outfield, and as such is used like the typical fake catch/glove slap move...and could have very well had an adverse effect for the infielder...as, the runner could have opted to run away from the fielder, who would have no ball to throw to third base.

There's nothing to 'challenge' here, either on the forum or on the field.  In OBR it's legal, end of discussion.   I understand your point, but .... "that's nothing, play on"  

[beerguy55 495]

3 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

There's nothing to 'challenge' here, either on the forum or on the field.  In OBR it's legal, end of discussion.   I understand your point, but .... "that's nothing, play on"  

You said "used all the time"...that is the statement I was challenging.

[Thunderheads 2,700]

21 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

You said "used all the time"...that is the statement I was challenging.

I didn't say 'used all the time' ....the OP did