Running outside the baseline?

[RBIbaseball]

Here was another one that happened for me yesterday. Hopefully I can accurately describe what I saw.

Bases clear, no outs. BR hits a ball to the outfield and gets caught in a rundown between 1st and 2nd. I was positioned on the infield grass about 6-8 feet away following the rundown.

Initially F6 caught the ball on 2B base with the BR about two or three steps away. Both turned back for 1B. At about the half way point, F6 had gained enough ground that he went for the tag (first with the glove, then pulled the ball out and swiped again with the hand). The BR was looking back as he attempted and was able to arch his back and clearly avoid the tags by a few inches. A few steps later as they both caught their balance (at this point about 10-12 feet from 1B) F6 stopped to throw to 1B, but as the BR saw him set to throw, he turned and looped around back toward 2B. When this happened, he clearly ran more than 3 feet outside the previous established base line (probably 5-6 feet), but I let the play go. Everyone (crowd and dugout) yelling for him being outside the baseline as you could imagine. As he started to turn and loop around F6 made no attempt to tag. F6 moved from his stance (ball in air behind his ear) where he was aimed at 1B for the throw and did a 360° [edit: meant 180]pivot bringing his front foot around toward 2B for the throw (ball remained behind his ear cocked to throw the whole way). The throw into 2B was dropped and the BR was now safely on 2B.

 

Coach came out to discuss the call. I said something along these lines, "Coach, this is what I saw. I did not see a tag attempt on the runner as he changed directions. To be considered outside the baseline, the runner has to be avoiding a tag. Because your fielder was trying to throw to first, then changed his throw to second, without ever attempting to tag the runner, I cannot call him out for running outside the baseline. If he would have attempted to tag him it might be a different story." He seemed quite satisfied with my reasoning and told me thanks for the explanation and went back to the dugout.

 

Was my call correct? 

Does the baseline "reset" after a clear separation in a tag attempt vs another play?

Running 5+ feet around a fielder that does not make any attempt to tag is legal for the runner?

 

Right or wrong, I got to say I was happy with how I articulated it. It at least avoided further heartache.

[noumpere]

He didn't go outside the baseline to avoid a tag -- I think that's reasonably close to the rule verbiage.

 

You got it right.

[Lou B]

Let me play devil's advocate here: Why would the runner loop around F6 by 5-6 feet if he wasn't trying to avoid a tag?

[RBIbaseball]

1 hour ago, Lou B said:

Let me play devil's advocate here: Why would the runner loop around F6 by 5-6 feet if he wasn't trying to avoid a tag?

That's why I question it and am a little unsure.

He was definitely avoiding a potential tag, but a tag attempt never happened. A tag attempt did happen about 4-5 steps prior but clearly separate from his decision to loop around.

[yawetag]

1 hour ago, Lou B said:

Let me play devil's advocate here: Why would the runner loop around F6 by 5-6 feet if he wasn't trying to avoid a tag?

To avoid a fielder in his vicinity from attempting a tag on him.

[RBIbaseball]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

He didn't go outside the baseline to avoid a tag -- I think that's reasonably close to the rule verbiage.

 

You got it right.

 

Did you consider my point about the initial tag that missed and does that baseline cease to exist? That part seemed unclear to me.

[maven]

4 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

Did you consider my point about the initial tag that missed and does that baseline cease to exist? That part seemed unclear to me.

When F6 initially attempted to tag him, he "lunged" (forward?) and not 3 feet out of a direct line to 1B (where he was headed).

When he "looped" around F6 (more than 3 feet), F6 was throwing to F3 and not trying to tag the BR.

All the action as described is legal.

[RBIbaseball]

@maven

Thanks. I appreciate the feedback. Seems like I had a real good idea what I was doing this time. Wish that was always the case lol.

[Jimurray]

2 minutes ago, maven said:

When F6 initially attempted to tag him, he "lunged" (forward?) and not 3 feet out of a direct line to 1B (where he was headed).

When he "looped" around F6 (more than 3 feet), F6 was throwing to F3 and not trying to tag the BR.

All the action as described is legal.

2017 MLBUM Interp requires no physical tag attempt as long as the fielder is moving to tag the runner. It doesn't sound as that was the case. U turns do require some lateral displacement.

 

[LRZ]

OBR 5.09(b)(1): "A runner is out when he runs more than three feet away from his base path to avoid being tagged....  A runner’s base path is established when the tag attempt occurs...." As I envision your scenario, there was no tag attempt during the looping/throwing part of the play ("F6 made no attempt to tag"), so R1 was not trying to avoid a tag when he looped back to 2B.

The UmpireBible website has this to say: "When a runner is caught between bases and fielders have the runner in a pickle (a rundown), each time the fielders exchange the ball and the runner reverses direction, the runner has created a new base path. Each time you have this reversal you have a new base path because you have a new fielder attempting to make a tag (and therefore a new 'straight line to the base'), and so you have to adjust your view of the base path accordingly."

 

 

[yawetag]

14 hours ago, LRZ said:

The UmpireBible website has this to say: "When a runner is caught between bases and fielders have the runner in a pickle (a rundown), each time the fielders exchange the ball and the runner reverses direction, the runner has created a new base path. Each time you have this reversal you have a new base path because you have a new fielder attempting to make a tag (and therefore a new 'straight line to the base'), and so you have to adjust your view of the base path accordingly."

 

 

And they're wrong.

A basepath is not established until a tag on the runner is attempted. Simply turning around and heading toward a different base doesn't automatically make a new path.

[LRZ]

I think you are saying essentially the same thing, but the website is misleading because of its first sentence; read it in conjunction with its second line, and you have the same idea: "Each time you have this reversal you have a new base path because you have a new fielder attempting to make a tag." But I get you.

[Guest Old Coach]

 I'll agree with the devil's advocate suggestion above....the chase must be considered part of the tag attempt.   Otherwise, a runner being chased can run in circles all around the outfield and so long as the fielder never gets close enough to extend ball out to attempt a tag, the runner isn't ever called out of the basepath ?

 

[stkjock]

17 hours ago, RBIbaseball said:

As he started to turn and loop around F6 made no attempt to tag. F6 moved from his stance (ball in air behind his ear) where he was aimed at 1B for the throw and did a 360° pivot bringing his front foot around toward 2B for the throw (ball remained behind his ear cocked to throw the whole way). The throw into 2B was dropped and the BR was now safely on 2B.

I think you mean 180*?  otherwise he's again facing 1B

[noumpere]

9 minutes ago, Guest Old Coach said:

 I'll agree with the devil's advocate suggestion above....the chase must be considered part of the tag attempt.   Otherwise, a runner being chased can run in circles all around the outfield and so long as the fielder never gets close enough to extend ball out to attempt a tag, the runner isn't ever called out of the basepath ?

 

That's not the requirement.

 

Use this (it's usually applied to base awards, but it's good here):

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has
possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a
runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or
actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. (The fact that the
runner is not out is not relevant.) A fake or a feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or an
attempted play.

[maven]

1 minute ago, stkjock said:

I think you mean 180*?  otherwise he's again facing 1B

[stkjock]

1 minute ago, maven said:

takes one to recognize one??????  

[RBIbaseball]

45 minutes ago, stkjock said:

I think you mean 180*?  otherwise he's again facing 1B

Good catch lol. Correct.

 

And to be clear, once the runner started to loop around, the fielder never took a step with his plant foot but only stepped 180 with his lead foot toward 2nd base.

[Rich Ives]

17 hours ago, Lou B said:

Let me play devil's advocate here: Why would the runner loop around F6 by 5-6 feet if he wasn't trying to avoid a tag?

There needs to be an attempt by the defense.

 

[Guest Coach]

Noumpere...don't F6's actions in the OP satisfy that definition of attempting to make a play/tag ? Isn't the fielder in question "throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire the runner" ?

 

If not, as the throw was being made to F3 from F6 could the runner have run into RF while the ball was in the air ?

 

 

[noumpere]

6 minutes ago, Guest Coach said:

Noumpere...don't F6's actions in the OP satisfy that definition of attempting to make a play/tag ? Isn't the fielder in question "throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire the runner" ?

Yes, if we are talking about whether this is "the first play" or not in order to make an award (from TOP or TOT).  But, we aren't.

[yawetag]

1 hour ago, LRZ said:

but the website is misleading because of its first sentence

Which is why I said they're wrong. Once you modify it, it's no longer correct.

And these are the things some umpires read to learn, so their mind connects on the "base paths are determined when a runner begins going toward a base" - and that's the most-wrong you can be.

[ousafe]

Lets see if I understand this.  We have an attempted tag by F6. We have a baseline, yes?

F6 never gives up the ball.

BR runs a big loop around F6 to reverse direction toward 2B and *get around* F6, who has the ball.

I'm having an extremely hard time believing this is not out of his baseline.  Just because the fielder didn't reach out in his direction as he was running the big loop?

[Edit] I guess this comes down to what constitutes a tag attempt?

[Guest Coach]

yeah, I'm not getting it either.  others are suggesting that it's OK for the runner to run absolutely anywhere on the field if he does it as the ball is being thrown by the chasing fielder.  makes no sense at all.

In other words, runners should be taught to run to the outfield fence once a rundown throw is in the air, hence, no tag is being attempted at that moment ?

[ousafe]

I get the part about the runner being able to run anywhere when the ball is thrown.  I dont get the part about being able to run anywhere when reversing direction and the trailing defender, with the ball, is in the runner's way.

[maven]

1 hour ago, ousafe said:

Lets see if I understand this.  We have an attempted tag by F6. We have a baseline, yes?

F6 never gives up the ball.

BR runs a big loop around F6 to reverse direction toward 2B and *get around* F6, who has the ball.

I'm having an extremely hard time believing this is not out of his baseline.  Just because the fielder didn't reach out in his direction as he was running the big loop?

[Edit] I guess this comes down to what constitutes a tag attempt?

You're flattening 2 distinct events into 1.

First, we have F6 chasing the runner and trying to tag him. The runner is moving toward 1B, and his baseline goes there. The runner avoids that tag attempt.

Second, F6 stops and begins to throw to 1B. The runner also stops, turns, and heads toward 2B (new baseline). He does go around F6, who does not attempt to tag him (had he done so, the runner should be called out). Instead, F6 tries to throw to 2B.

Again, as described, this is nothing. That said, I like to get this out whenever I can: I might see F6 do something—anything—that I could call a tag attempt as the runner is going around him.

But that's not what the covering umpire saw, so it's nothing.