Has anyone ever had a 4th out appeal call?

[Double Up]

The idiot who explained this to me was so completely off that I had to look it up myself. /. 

I understand the concept and the conditions (basically recording a subsequent 4th force out, thus appealing for the force to nullify the run from scoring),  but who has ever had this happen?  

 

[noumpere]

[sarcasm] No,, it's never happened.  That's why it's in the book.  [/sarcasm]

It happened to me several times over my career.

[maven]

I've had it several times.

[Double Up]

Wow, guess I don't get out enough! 

[Lou B]

Had one last weekend in a 10U Travel Tournament.

[Mister B]

Used it once in a game as a coach. R1 and R3, ground ball to F6, R1 falls going to 2B, so F6 takes his time tagging the base. R3 scored before the out. B/R gave up, so he never touched 1B. Was screaming at my guys to get the out at 1B. Luckily a couple of them were actually paying attention when we talked about the advantageous 4th out. 

Turns out it didn't matter as neither the umpire nor the other coach actually knew the rule and didn't count the run in the first place. 

[Jimurray]

53 minutes ago, Mister B said:

Used it once in a game as a coach. R1 and R3, ground ball to F6, R1 falls going to 2B, so F6 takes his time tagging the base. R3 scored before the out. B/R gave up, so he never touched 1B. Was screaming at my guys to get the out at 1B. Luckily a couple of them were actually paying attention when we talked about the advantageous 4th out. 

Turns out it didn't matter as neither the umpire nor the other coach actually knew the rule and didn't count the run in the first place. 

I’m confused. How many outs to start? Doesn’t seem like a fourth out appeal. 

[Richvee]

Had it only once. R2, R3 1 out. Liner to CF looked like a sure hit, both runners run. F8 full out sprint straight in makes a great diving catch, flips to F6 for the appeal on R2 and 3rd out.. I point to the plate a say run counts. DHC almost becomes unglued before realizing he needs to appeal R3 left early.  

[beerguy55]

11 hours ago, Mister B said:

Used it once in a game as a coach. R1 and R3, ground ball to F6, R1 falls going to 2B, so F6 takes his time tagging the base. R3 scored before the out. B/R gave up, so he never touched 1B. Was screaming at my guys to get the out at 1B. Luckily a couple of them were actually paying attention when we talked about the advantageous 4th out. 

Turns out it didn't matter as neither the umpire nor the other coach actually knew the rule and didn't count the run in the first place. 

Where's the fourth out appeal?

If there were two outs, touching the bag at second negates the run (third out force).  So, yeah, the umpire knew the rule and properly removed the run.

If there was one out, touching first is simply completing the double play to get the third out, which negates the run.

 

AND, let's say something really silly happens, like R1 reaches second and rounds it, and is tagged out after R3 scores, then there is a wonderfully interesting debate, and discrepancy between rule sets, to whether or not you actually can "replace" that out with the B/R at first.

[stkjock]

12 hours ago, Jimurray said:

I’m confused. How many outs to start? Doesn’t seem like a fourth out appeal. 

 me too

12 hours ago, Richvee said:

Had it only once. R2, R3 1 out. Liner to CF looked like a sure hit, both runners run. F8 full out sprint straight in makes a great diving catch, flips to F6 for the appeal on R2 and 3rd out.. I point to the plate a say run counts. DHC almost becomes unglued before realizing he needs to appeal R3 left early.  

did they appeal R3 as well?

[beerguy55]

12 hours ago, Richvee said:

Had it only once. R2, R3 1 out. Liner to CF looked like a sure hit, both runners run. F8 full out sprint straight in makes a great diving catch, flips to F6 for the appeal on R2 and 3rd out.. I point to the plate a say run counts. DHC almost becomes unglued before realizing he needs to appeal R3 left early.  

So in the settings where verbal appeals are allowed, at what point does the DHC's argument/objection become a "verbal appeal"?  He's inevitably going to say "but he left early too, how can the run count?"   Is that enough?

In the settings where they are not allowed, how do  you respond without explicitly telling him he needs to complete an appeal?  "But he left early too?"  "Soooooooo."   Assuming it's not too late (ie. the fielders have all gone to the bench)...and in that scenario would you just say "If your infielders hadn't left fair territory they would have been able to appeal, but unfortunately that bird has flown."

[noumpere]

10 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

So in the settings where verbal appeals are allowed, at what point does the DHC's argument/objection become a "verbal appeal"?  He's inevitably going to say "but he left early too, how can the run count?"   Is that enough?

 

Yes.

And, while it's a somewhat advanced technique, an dthe umpire needs to use judgment on when to do it,  the umpire can sometimes say, "Coach, hat are you trying to do?"

[maven]

Verbal appeals are dead-ball appeals. Often coaches will start hollering about leaving early while the ball is live, and that action does not constitute a proper verbal appeal.

Then, when the ball is dead, we can ask the coach to repeat his accusation. At that point, it becomes a verbal appeal.

No specific verbiage is required for a verbal appeal, but as with live-ball appeals the runner and base in question must be clear.

[Richvee]

7 hours ago, stkjock said:

 

did they appeal R3 as well?

As Beerguy assumed. It went that way. DHC said "How can he score?  He left early too."  Players still on the field so that constitutes a legal dead ball appeal. No argument from OHC. 

[Lou B]

23 hours ago, Mister B said:

Used it once in a game as a coach. R1 and R3, ground ball to F6, R1 falls going to 2B, so F6 takes his time tagging the base. R3 scored before the out. B/R gave up, so he never touched 1B. Was screaming at my guys to get the out at 1B. Luckily a couple of them were actually paying attention when we talked about the advantageous 4th out. 

Turns out it didn't matter as neither the umpire nor the other coach actually knew the rule and didn't count the run in the first place. 

The third out at second was a force out, doesn't matter if R3 crossed the plate before F6 touched second, the run doesn't count.  Maybe the ump and other coach knew the rule after all!

No "advantageous" fourth out was necessary.

[Richvee]

50 minutes ago, Lou B said:

The third out at second was a force out, doesn't matter if R3 crossed the plate before F6 touched second, the run doesn't count.  Maybe the ump and other coach knew the rule after all!

No "advantageous" fourth out was necessary.

never mind  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

never mind  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That’s one “nevermind”. We need one more if you peruse the thread

.  BTW I’m guilty of at least one “nevermind” in my posting history. 

[Mister B]

nevermind on mine as well. Gotta stop posting on less than an hour of sleep. I know I've used it, and the outcome was the same with the umpire and other coach not realizing it, but can't seem to remember the beginning. I think the excitement of being in a situation to actually use it only to not need it, was a huge let down.