Runner Hit by the ball

[Guest Godzilla]

A runner is on second base...No one at first .....No out...A grounded ball is hit and accidentally touches the runner while he  is still standing on second base....Is anybody out ?

[Rich Ives]

17 hours ago, Guest Godzilla said:

A runner is on second base...No one at first .....No out...A grounded ball is hit and accidentally touches the runner while he  is still standing on second base....Is anybody out ?

The runner is out for interfering with a batted ball.  The base is not a safe haven. 

The exceptions are: 1) It was deflected by another fielder before it hit the runner - this wasn't.  2) It went through or within reach of a fielder and no other fielder had a play on it before it hit the runner.  This didn't happen here.

Passing has a limited definition (see exception) and the addition of the drawn in part only applies in HS rules.   

[Radwaste50]

The runner at second is out, he interfered with the play.  Assuming that the infield is in their normal positions and not drawn in so that the ball has not passed the fielders.

[Lou B]

Agree with the others, the runner is out.

Assuming less than two outs, the batter is awarded first base.

[UMP45]

On 10/1/2018 at 4:27 PM, Rich Ives said:

The runner is out for interfering with a batted ball.  The base is not a safe haven. 

The exceptions are: 1) It was deflected by another fielder before it hit the runner - this wasn't.  2) It went through or within reach of a fielder and no other fielder had a play on it before it hit the runner.  This didn't happen here.

Passing has a limited definition (see exception) and the addition of the drawn in part only applies in HS rules.   

And IFF.

[Senor Azul]

“Passing has a limited definition (see exception) and the addition of the drawn in part only applies in HS rules.”  Where does it say this, Mr. Rich Ives? It doesn’t say anything like that in the applicable OBR or NCAA rules.

2018 OBR 5.09(b)(7) Any runner is out when…He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball has touched or passed an infielder. The ball is dead and no runner may score, nor runners advance, except runners forced to advance. EXCEPTION: If a runner is touching his base when touched by an Infield Fly, he is not out, although the batter is out;

Rule 5.09(b)(7) Comment: If two runners are touched by the same fair ball, only the first one is out because the ball is instantly dead.

If a runner is touched by an Infield Fly when he is not touching his base, both the runner and batter are out.

2018 OBR 6.01(a)(11) It is interference by a batter or a runner when…A fair ball touches him on fair territory before touching a fielder. If a fair ball goes through, or by, an infielder, and touches a runner immediately back of him, or touches the runner after having been deflected by a fielder, the umpire shall not declare the runner out for being touched by a batted ball. In making such decision the umpire must be convinced that the ball passed through, or by, the fielder, and that no other infielder had the chance to make a play on the ball. If, in the judgment of the umpire, the runner deliberately and intentionally kicks such a batted ball on which the infielder has missed a play, then the runner shall be called out for interference.

PENALTY FOR INTERFERENCE: The runner is out and the ball is dead.

2018 NCAA rule 8-5k. The runner, including a runner in contact with a base, is hit while in fair territory by a batted ball before it has touched a fielder or passed all infielders who have a chance to make a play on the ball, other than the pitcher. If two runners are hit by the same fair ball, only the first runner is out (see 6-2-e).

[Rich Ives]

9 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

“Passing has a limited definition (see exception) and the addition of the drawn in part only applies in HS rules.”  Where does it say this, Mr. Rich Ives? It doesn’t say anything like that in the applicable OBR or NCAA rules.

2018 OBR 5.09(b)(7) Any runner is out when…He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball has touched or passed an infielder.

Right there. 

Passed means through or within reach. 

Do you see an exception for a drawn in infield?   Neither do I.

 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

Right there. 

Passed means through or within reach. 

Do you see an exception for a drawn in infield?   Neither do I.

 

The exception in OBR and I think NCAA is that with a drawn in infield, a thru or by ball could not be fielded by another infielder so a runner hit by that batted ball would not be guilty of INT. In OBR, at least by what my last issue of the WUM says, in professional baseball, if the infield is not playing in, a ball thru or by, lets say F3, would be INT if it hit R1 because a professional F4 would have a play. If in that sit F4 was playing in than "no other infielder had a play"

[Senor Azul]

Here’s another exception where the runner is hit by a batted ball and is not out--taken from the 2015 MLBUM (section 18, p. 19):

Example 12:  Runner on second base, no one out. Batter bunts the ball down the third base line. Pitcher and third baseman hover over the ball and let it roll down the line towards third, hoping it will go foul. The ball continues to roll down the line in fair territory with the pitcher and the third baseman following it. The ball ends up rolling to third base, strikes the base, and then strikes the runner from second base who is now standing on third.

Ruling:  Even though the ball has technically not passed a fielder, the ball is alive and in play because the fielders had an opportunity to field the batted ball but chose not to. The runner is not out in this situation.

 

[noumpere]

9 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

“Passing has a limited definition (see exception) and the addition of the drawn in part only applies in HS rules.”  Where does it say this, Mr. Rich Ives? It doesn’t say anything like that in the applicable OBR or NCAA rules.

 

Right -- it doesn't say it in OBR, so it doesn't apply. (I seem to recall that it might, in fact, be in NCAA.)

 

Rich is talking about the FED "string theory" -- if the infield is "in" and the runner is hit:  In FED, the ball has passed (meaning "farther away") the fielders and the runner is NOT out; in OBR, the ball has not *passed through or immediately by* the fielders and the runner is out.

[Rich Ives]

11 hours ago, Jimurray said:

The exception in OBR and I think NCAA is that with a drawn in infield, a thru or by ball could not be fielded by another infielder so a runner hit by that batted ball would not be guilty of INT. In OBR, at least by what my last issue of the WUM says, in professional baseball, if the infield is not playing in, a ball thru or by, lets say F3, would be INT if it hit R1 because a professional F4 would have a play. If in that sit F4 was playing in than "no other infielder had a play"

There is no such exception in OBR.  There is in FED but not in OBR.

[BT_Blue]

17 hours ago, Lou B said:

Agree with the others, the runner is out.

Assuming less than two outs, the batter is awarded first base.

I believe that the batter would still be credited with reaching first on a Fielder's Choice. Even with 2 outs. As he would not come up to lead off the next half inning.

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

There is no such exception in OBR.  There is in FED but not in OBR.

There is no exception for a "drawn in infield" in the FED or OBR rule. The exception for a "thru or by" ball is for the umpire to determine if another fielder had a play and that determination is almost automatic when the infield is in. 

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 BRD (section 333, p. 219):

OBR Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  A runner leading off first will be called out whenever he is hit by a batted ball even if it immediately passes through or by a diving first baseman. The second baseman is “usually” considered as still having an opportunity to field a batted ball unless he is playing in.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. BT_Blue, when a runner is hit by a batted ball and called out for interference the batter is credited with a hit by rule--

2018 OBR 9.05(a)(5) The official scorer shall credit a batter with a base hit when…a fair ball that has not been touched by a fielder touches a runner or an umpire, unless a runner is called out for having been touched by an Infield Fly, in which case the official scorer shall not score a hit;

[Rich Ives]

19 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2016 BRD (section 333, p. 219):

OBR Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  A runner leading off first will be called out whenever he is hit by a batted ball even if it immediately passes through or by a diving first baseman. The second baseman is “usually” considered as still having an opportunity to field a batted ball unless he is playing in.

That's because of the "no other fielder . . " part of the rule, not because of the through or by part.

[beerguy55]

On 9/30/2018 at 9:18 PM, Guest Godzilla said:

A runner is on second base...No one at first .....No out...A grounded ball is hit and accidentally touches the runner while he  is still standing on second base....Is anybody out ?

I'll also be the jackass and point out that another exception is softball - being on the base protects the runner in softball, both fast and slow pitch (barring intent).

[MadMax]

7 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I'll also be the jackass and point out that another exception is softball - 

You’re not being a jackass... softball is a perfectly valid fellow bat-sport. What we need is a questioner to state the situation completely (baseball or softball, Ruleset being used, context, etc.)... and less umpires confusing the two when firing off an answer (not saying anyone here has).

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

You’re not being a jackass... softball is a perfectly valid fellow bat-sport. What we need is a questioner to state the situation completely (baseball or softball, Ruleset being used, context, etc.)... and less umpires confusing the two when firing off an answer (not saying anyone here has).

Thanks.  The catch-22 is the majority of people who don't know (for example) the difference between an appeal and a force also probably don't know that there are so many rule set variances, so they don't know to state which one they're using - if they know which one they're using.   Hell, I was a certified coach under Softball Canada and had my first wtf moment when I went to Montana and realized ASA had different rules (as opposed to just expecting the garden variety tournament specific differences).