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jjskitours

Appeal play

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R1 stealing on the pitch. Deep fly ball that is caught at the wall. R1 was half way to 3rd and before even reaching 2nd on his way back to 1st, the throw comes into F4 who stands on 2nd and appeals. Can R1 be called out or does the ball need to go to 1st for a valid?

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7 hours ago, jjskitours said:

R1 stealing on the pitch. Deep fly ball that is caught at the wall. R1 was half way to 3rd and before even reaching 2nd on his way back to 1st, the throw comes into F4 who stands on 2nd and appeals. Can R1 be called out or does the ball need to go to 1st for a valid?

(5) He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is
legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a
fielder.

His base is where he started.

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7 hours ago, jjskitours said:

R1 stealing on the pitch. Deep fly ball that is caught at the wall. R1 was half way to 3rd and before even reaching 2nd on his way back to 1st, the throw comes into F4 who stands on 2nd and appeals. Can R1 be called out or does the ball need to go to 1st for a valid?

Did the runner violate any baserunning rules at second?  (Hint:  NO)  So, any appeal of such a violation will be denied.

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For FED “the live ball verbal appeal—he missed the base or he left too soon—must be accompanied by a fielder’s tagging the base where the error occurred or tagging the runner who committed the baserunning error.”

2015 FED rule 8-2-6b: 

Live Ball:  In all games an appeal may be made during a live ball by any fielder in possession of the ball touching the base missed or left too soon on a caught fly ball, or by tagging the runner committing the violation if he is still on the playing field.

 

Since the play in your scenario involves the runner leaving first base too soon, the F4 standing on second and verbally appealing does not meet the requirements of the rule. In order to get the out, the F4 must tag the runner or throw the ball to first for the legal retouch appeal.

 

 

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1. If R1 cut across the infield and ran directly to first base, without retouching second, then yes, he's out (but for a different appeal)

2. If R1 is still standing between 2nd and 3rd, or on his way back to second before retreating to first, he's not out...yet.   But it will be interesting for him to try to return to first with F4 standing on second base with the ball....but if he manages to avoid the tag, he's still alive.

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The subparagraph partially quoted and found to be the best answer possible is actually from OBR rule 5.09(b) which comes from the section about retiring a runner—

2018 OBR 5.09(b)(5) He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder. He shall not be called out for failure to retouch his base after the first following pitch, or any play or attempted play. This is an appeal play;

OBR rule 5.09c is the rule dealing with appeals and here is how it answers the question in the OP--

2018 OBR 5.09(c) Appeal Plays

Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when:

(1) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged;

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To throw another wrinkle into this, if R1 were to return to, and stand on second, he would still be out on appeal if tagged, correct? I don't know if that would ever happen but second base would not be a safe haven if he needs to return to first.

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1 hour ago, Mussgrass said:

To throw another wrinkle into this, if R1 were to return to, and stand on second, he would still be out on appeal if tagged, correct? I don't know if that would ever happen but second base would not be a safe haven if he needs to return to first.

"Safe haven" is relative to some infraction or other, for example being tagged while off base or out for INT with an IFF.

In this instance, the runner is out on the retouch appeal (failing to retouch 1B), and standing on 2B, or 3B, or HP is not safe haven.

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1 hour ago, Mussgrass said:

To throw another wrinkle into this, if R1 were to return to, and stand on second, he would still be out on appeal if tagged, correct? I don't know if that would ever happen but second base would not be a safe haven if he needs to return to first.

Correct...same if he were to advance to third and F4 walked over and tagged him.   It happens more than you think...I've seen it many times at the amateur level, and have also seen it several times watching MLB on TV - common one is R1 going, line drive to F6 - after catch he just touches R1 who is now standing on second base.

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From the Jaksa/Roder manual—

A retouch appeal occurs when such appeal is obvious and when action is relaxed or unrelaxed and

(a) the retouch base is tagged (before the suspect runner’s return), or

(b) the suspect runner is tagged on another base

An appeal of a runner’s failure to retouch is only obvious when…

The runner has clearly failed to retouch, i.e., the runner is at or returning from a considerable distance away from his TOP base when a fly ball is caught…

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5 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

From the Jaksa/Roder manual—

A retouch appeal occurs when such appeal is obvious and when action is relaxed or unrelaxed and

(a) the retouch base is tagged (before the suspect runner’s return), or

(b) the suspect runner is tagged on another base

An appeal of a runner’s failure to retouch is only obvious when…

The runner has clearly failed to retouch, i.e., the runner is at or returning from a considerable distance away from his TOP base when a fly ball is caught…

One semantic quibble with JR, by rule the  runner has to retouch before the base or the runner (@beerguy55 will not like the possibility of a runner being called out while touching the base) is tagged. Common sense says go with JR.

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16 hours ago, Jimurray said:

@beerguy55 will not like the possibility of a runner being called out while touching the base

It gives me hives just thinking about it.

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Since the original question has been pretty thoroughly answered, I don't feel bad about this minor hijack:

Suppose R1 was going on the pitch and the ball was hit in the air to F7.  As R1 is rounding 2B, s/he sees the fly ball and heads directly back to 1B (missing 2B).  F7 makes the catch and throws toward F3, who does not catch the ball.  R1 sees the throw get away, touches 1B, and advances to 2B as F3 retrieves the ball.

There are no longer any oustanding appeal-able base running errors, are there?

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6 minutes ago, CJK said:

Since the original question has been pretty thoroughly answered, I don't feel bad about this minor hijack:

Suppose R1 was going on the pitch and the ball was hit in the air to F7.  As R1 is rounding 2B, s/he sees the fly ball and heads directly back to 1B (missing 2B).  F7 makes the catch and throws toward F3, who does not catch the ball.  R1 sees the throw get away, touches 1B, and advances to 2B as F3 retrieves the ball.

There are no longer any oustanding appeal-able base running errors, are there?

Correct, under the "last time by" principal -- but some (FED, I think) might still allow an appeal at second if it was a "gross miss"

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From the 2016 BRD (section 5, p. 17):

FED:  If a runner, either advancing or returning, correctly touches a base that was missed the last time he passes by that base, his final touch corrects any previous baserunning infraction. EXCEPT:

Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  “Last time by” does not apply when a runner misses a base to gain an unfair advantage. (Website 2011 #16 and 18)

2011 SITUATION 16: As R1 attempts to score from second base, he misses third base by cutting well inside the infield. With the fly ball being caught, Brown attempts to return, touching third as he goes back to second base. RULING: Brown will be declared out on the appeal because a runner who misses a base in a manner to gain an unfair advantage is still vulnerable to appeal. (8-2-6l)

2011 SITUATION 18: R1 leaves first base too soon on a caught fly ball. He touches second and nears third when his coach instructs him to return. R1 does so by running directly across the diamond toward first base. The ball gets by the first baseman, and R1 retouches first and makes it safely to second base. RULING: R1 would be declared out upon proper appeal by the defense as the principle of “Last Time By” would not apply. (8-2-6l)

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16 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

2011 SITUATION 18: R1 leaves first base too soon on a caught fly ball. He touches second and nears third when his coach instructs him to return. R1 does so by running directly across the diamond toward first base. The ball gets by the first baseman, and R1 retouches first and makes it safely to second base. RULING: R1 would be declared out upon proper appeal by the defense as the principle of “Last Time By” would not apply. (8-2-6l)

What a perfect citation.  This is exactly the situation I had in mind.

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According to the 2016 BRD (section 5, p. 17) the NCAA also rules that last time by does not correct a gross miss.

NCAA:  Official Interpretation:  Paronto:  Same as FED OI. (email to cc, 10/17/13)

Play 4-5:  R1 leaves too soon on a fly ball. He touches second and advances near third when he realizes he must return and does so by running directly across the diamond toward first. The ball gets by F3; and R1, after retouching first, makes it safely to second. The defense appeals that he missed second, the base on which he now stands, during his return to first. Ruling:  In FED and NCAA, the umpire will uphold the appeal. At those levels “last time by” applies to situations where the runner could have touched the base but missed it by less than his body’s length. In OBR, the appeal is denied, and the runner is not out. (Adapted from WRIM p. 191)

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36 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

According to the 2016 BRD (section 5, p. 17) the NCAA also rules that last time by does not correct a gross miss.

NCAA:  Official Interpretation:  Paronto:  Same as FED OI. (email to cc, 10/17/13)

Play 4-5:  R1 leaves too soon on a fly ball. He touches second and advances near third when he realizes he must return and does so by running directly across the diamond toward first. The ball gets by F3; and R1, after retouching first, makes it safely to second. The defense appeals that he missed second, the base on which he now stands, during his return to first. Ruling:  In FED and NCAA, the umpire will uphold the appeal. At those levels “last time by” applies to situations where the runner could have touched the base but missed it by less than his body’s length. In OBR, the appeal is denied, and the runner is not out. (Adapted from WRIM p. 191)

So OBR let's you take the calculated risk - run 180 feet, or 130 feet and see what happens.   I think I run the 130 feet, and hope F3 starts arguing with Blue that I ran across the pitcher's mound, and doesn't notice me run to second.   I'd get away with it if Miguel Cabrera was at first.

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