Is this a balk or not? (Video)

[Guest Anton]

Guys! I'm very interested to know your opinion about pitcher's pick off move to first base from video below. Please, exlpain your point according to the rules. It's a Russian Baseball League. Thank you in advance!

Is this a balk or not?! (Youtube video)

[stkjock]

...........................

[Rich Ives]

16 minutes ago, stkjock said:

You will get much better responses than mine, however, it's pretty clear once F1 becomes set, he moves his front leg before disengaging with his pivot foot.

 

I'll delete this comment if it's wrong - so any senior member who thinks I got it totally wrong, please don't quote me.

The disengage itself was a balk. Has to go back - he went toward 1B.

 

[maven]

That's a balk.

It is not a legal disengagement, because the pivot foot does not move directly backward in a step behind the rubber. F1 moves to 1B with the pivot.

It is not a step and throw to a base, because F1 steps with the pivot foot first instead of the free foot.

It is clearly not a pitch to the batter.

Therefore, it does not satisfy the requirements of any of the 3 things that F1 may legally do. Balk.

[maven]

 

[noumpere]

38 minutes ago, stkjock said:

You will get much better responses than mine, however, it's pretty clear once F1 becomes set, he moves his front leg before disengaging with his pivot foot.

 

I'll delete this comment if it's wrong - so any senior member who thinks I got it totally wrong, please don't quote me.

Delete it. 

You're right that it's a balk, but for the wrong reason.

[stkjock]

well now it's been quoted twice  

[Guest Anton]

2 hours ago, maven said:

That's a balk.

It is not a legal disengagement, because the pivot foot does not move directly backward in a step behind the rubber. F1 moves to 1B with the pivot.

It is not a step and throw to a base, because F1 steps with the pivot foot first instead of the free foot.

It is clearly not a pitch to the batter.

Therefore, it does not satisfy the requirements of any of the 3 things that F1 may legally do. Balk.

So, it's a balk for what reason? I mean what item number in Balks section of rules he broke by this move? I can't find a balk for not stepping behind the rubber. My opinion it's a legal pick throw to first. Many MLB players turn to first base with their pivot foot and then throw. And it's legal in MLB. I don't understand why it should be a balk.

[umpstu]

13 minutes ago, Guest Anton said:

So, it's a balk for what reason? I mean what item number in Balks section of rules he broke by this move? I can't find a balk for not stepping behind the rubber. My opinion it's a legal pick throw to first. Many MLB players turn to first base with their pivot foot and then throw. And it's legal in MLB. I don't understand why it should be a balk.

From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot.  Page 34 of MLB rule book.

[Guest Anton]

10 minutes ago, umpstu said:

From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot.  Page 34 of MLB rule book.

Right. So, he threw to a base. Now show me please balk rule he broke from Pages 71-72 of MLB rule book. Thanks.

[umpstu]

9 minutes ago, Guest Anton said:

Right. So, he threw to a base. Now show me please balk rule he broke from Pages 71-72 of MLB rule book. Thanks.

Step BACKWARD off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot.  When he steps backwards off the plate he did so towards first base, not backwards towards 2nd base.  I had to explain this so much to hobby coaches during my first summer of baseball that I stooped working younger aged games.

[Guest Anton]

51 minutes ago, umpstu said:

Step BACKWARD off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot.  When he steps backwards off the plate he did so towards first base, not backwards towards 2nd base.  I had to explain this so much to hobby coaches during my first summer of baseball that I stooped working younger aged games.

I wrote above it's not a step off. It's throw to first. Please, make a quote from Balks section of rules he broke.

[grayhawk]

If the pitcher moves his pivot foot first, he can either step backwards off the rubber to disengage (which did not happen here), or he may step with his pivot foot towards third base provided that he then steps with his free foot towards first base in one continuous motion (this also did not happen here).  When a pitcher steps towards third with the pivot foot, sometimes called a jab step, prior to stepping and throwing to first, he is still considered to be engaged with the rubber.   There's a section in the MiLBUM that maps out the step.

Stepping with his pivot foot towards the base is neither of these, and is not considered to be a legal step.

Guest Anton, there are some things that the rule book doesn't spell out directly, so umpires use official interpretations that are published in other manuals.  The Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (MiLBUM) and the Major League Umpire Manual (MLBUM) are two of these publications.

[Guest Anton]

31 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

If the pitcher moves his pivot foot first, he can either step backwards off the rubber to disengage (which did not happen here), or he may step with his pivot foot towards third base provided that he then steps with his free foot towards first base in one continuous motion (this also did not happen here).  When a pitcher steps towards third with the pivot foot, sometimes called a jab step, prior to stepping and throwing to first, he is still considered to be engaged with the rubber.   There's a section in the MiLBUM that maps out the step.

Stepping with his pivot foot towards the base is neither of these, and is not considered to be a legal step.

Guest Anton, there are some things that the rule book doesn't spell out directly, so umpires use official interpretations that are published in other manuals.  The Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (MiLBUM) and the Major League Umpire Manual (MLBUM) are two of these publications.

Ok. So, It should be a balk too on a video below? He didn't step off backwards and he throws without contact with the rubber with his pivot foot. Did I understand you correct?

 

[grayhawk]

10 minutes ago, Guest Anton said:

Ok. So, It should be a balk too on a video below? He didn't step off backwards and he throws without contact with the rubber with his pivot foot. Did I understand you correct?

 

That's a jump turn, which is also legal to first base.  I am talking about the pivot foot moving first, which did not happen in the video above.

[Guest Anton]

26 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

That's a jump turn, which is also legal to first base.  I am talking about the pivot foot moving first, which did not happen in the video above.

Now I'm confused. On a topic video It's a jump turn too. Carter Capps pitched with jump to home plate and it's legal. Why jump to first base with a throw is not? Astros pitcher in the last video moves his pivot foot first too and it's not a balk.

[grayhawk]

31 minutes ago, Guest Anton said:

Now I'm confused. On a topic video It's a jump turn too. Carter Capps pitched with jump to home plate and it's legal. Why jump to first base with a throw is not? Astros pitcher in the last video moves his pivot foot first too and it's not a balk.

The first video you posted isn’t a jump turn.  A legal jump turn to first means jumping in the air with the right foot coming down at the same time as the left foot, with the right foot towards third and the left foot towards first. The feet must land before the throw. In your video, the pitcher stepped back towards first with his pivot foot and then stepped with his left foot and threw. It’s simply an illegal step and a balk. There’s a reason nobody outside Russia tries this. 

[Guest Anton]

6 hours ago, grayhawk said:

The first video you posted isn’t a jump turn.  A legal jump turn to first means jumping in the air with the right foot coming down at the same time as the left foot, with the right foot towards third and the left foot towards first. The feet must land before the throw. In your video, the pitcher stepped back towards first with his pivot foot and then stepped with his left foot and threw. It’s simply an illegal step and a balk. There’s a reason nobody outside Russia tries this. 

I see. But, sorry, I don't see any difference from video of pick off to second base. It can't be illegal only because nobody do this before. Rules don't cover what is a "jump turn" exactly, so I see it as a jump turn too. It says he must make a step with a free foot to a base then throw. So he did it. Thanks to all for your opinions, but I see only one real reply for now: nobody does it, so it's a balk. I think it's not fair.

[maven]

47 minutes ago, Guest Anton said:

I see. But, sorry, I don't see any difference from video of pick off to second base. It can't be illegal only because nobody do this before. Rules don't cover what is a "jump turn" exactly, so I see it as a jump turn too. It says he must make a step with a free foot to a base then throw. So he did it. Thanks to all for your opinions, but I see only one real reply for now: nobody does it, so it's a balk. I think it's not fair.

Nobody here says "nobody does it, so it's a balk." grayhawk's point was that it's a balk, so nobody does it.

The play to 2B you posted was ruled—correctly, as most of us think—a jump turn. F1 clearly jumps as he turns, and by interpretation this move counts as stepping and throwing to a base. Legal.

The video you post is—most of us think—not a jump turn, but a step with the pivot toward a base. As I've posted, the move is illegal in all codes because it does not satisfy the requirements of either disengaging or stepping and throwing to a base (with the free foot).

Whether it's a jump turn is a judgment call, so you're free to disagree. Call it however you want in your own games. But there's no point arguing: you posted the video and asked whether we think it's legal. You have your answer.

When it's you against the world, you might be correct, but that's not the way to bet.

Continued argument on this point starts to look like trolling.

[Guest Anton]

45 minutes ago, maven said:

Nobody here says "nobody does it, so it's a balk." grayhawk's point was that it's a balk, so nobody does it.

The play to 2B you posted was ruled—correctly, as most of us think—a jump turn. F1 clearly jumps as he turns, and by interpretation this move counts as stepping and throwing to a base. Legal.

The video you post is—most of us think—not a jump turn, but a step with the pivot toward a base. As I've posted, the move is illegal in all codes because it does not satisfy the requirements of either disengaging or stepping and throwing to a base (with the free foot).

Whether it's a jump turn is a judgment call, so you're free to disagree. Call it however you want in your own games. But there's no point arguing: you posted the video and asked whether we think it's legal. You have your answer.

When it's you against the world, you might be correct, but that's not the way to bet.

Continued argument on this point starts to look like trolling.

No trolling at all. Absolutely. Just want to know how rules coverst jump turn? Only difference I see: jump turn on its place and jump turn to the side, it still a jump turn (both legs in the air), but to direction of first base. Sorry if my thougths bothers you, but I just want to find a fair enough decision to myself. And I can't do it so far. What if LHP makes a jump turn and throw to third base with his pivt foot moving to first base side off the rubber? Is it legal too? But you mentioned that the only legal jump turn is with pivot foot landing to the third base side. Is this play covered by rules or ump manual? Again. No trolling. Only respect to everybody here. That's why I'm asking you these not so easy questions and not guys from our league. Thank you for your attention.

[noumpere]

It has to do with the word "directly".  It means both "in a line toward" and "immediately".  The pitcher violated the second part part of that by moving the pivot foot toward first.

The jab-step and jump-turn are technical violations of this, but have been allowed by interpretations; the move in the first video hasn't.

[Mudisfun]

His right leg, IE pivot foot is the foot he led with in his throw to first. This, as most of us have agreed is not a legal move. If he jumped turned, then his right foot would not be 1/2 way down the mound towards first but somewhere on top of the mound and closer to 3rd base. This is a side step off the mound and not legal.

The other plays you posted are plays to 2nd, which are not apples to apples.

 

[maven]

9 hours ago, Guest Anton said:

Only difference I see: jump turn on its place and jump turn to the side, it still a jump turn (both legs in the air), but to direction of first base.

Here's the main difference: for a RHP to jump turn to 1B, his pivot will land toward 3B, not 1B.

[ricka56]

7 hours ago, noumpere said:

It has to do with the word "directly".  It means both "in a line toward" and "immediately".  The pitcher violated the second part part of that by moving the pivot foot toward first.

The jab-step and jump-turn are technical violations of this, but have been allowed by interpretations; the move in the first video hasn't.

This ^^^^

It is technically a balk, but it is the least "deceptive" balk move F1 can do. At lower levels (the only place you see this stuff), daddy coaches don't know that this is a balk and don't notice that you don't notice (outwardly). 

[Gfoley4]

13 minutes ago, ricka56 said:

This ^^^^

It is technically a balk, but it is the least "deceptive" balk move F1 can do. At lower levels (the only place you see this stuff), daddy coaches don't know that this is a balk and don't notice that you don't notice (outwardly). 

yeah, related, I've seen a lot of RHP this year on a pickoff throw to third base from the rubber move (or maybe more aptly slide) their pivot towards first base then immediately step and throw to third. Haven't called a balk on it