Caught fly, runner overruns base on retouch

[afaber12]

I'm relatively new to doing junior games, so I'm still getting used to players doing the unexpected. Even simple things like runners overrunning bases, and fielders not knowing to tag runners that do it. So a play caught me by surprise the other day in a game I was supervising - in our local junior league the younger age groups tend to be umpired by junior umpires who play in higher age groups, and when they do, there needs to be an adult supervisor - and though there was no question about the play from anyone at the time, I'm wondering if perhaps a call should have been made that wasn't.

Modified OBR (though the mods don't apply here), R1, less than 2 out. Fly ball caught by F8 coming in and towards RF. F8 throws to F3 to try and double off R1 who had stopped 1/3-1/2 way towards 2B. R1 gets back to 1B before F3 caught the ball while standing on the base. However R1 ran through the base by a couple of steps, and then returned to the base. F3 never even attempted to tag R1.

My initial thought at the time was that R1 retouched 1B ahead of the throw and so was safe on the "appeal" for leaving early, but that since they'd reinstated the force by going past 1B they were out when the base was tagged. Then I thought that couldn't be the case because BR was already out on the caught fly ball, so there was no force. I'm fairly confident that the runner was correctly called safe. But it got me thinking:

R1 and R2, less than 2 out. Fly ball to the outfield. Both runners leave their bases but hold partway to the next base waiting to see if the ball is caught or not. It is caught, and the runners return. Ball's thrown to 2B. R2 touches 2B before the fielder catches it while standing on the base, but the runner overruns the base. With only the tag of the base and not the runner, is R2 out? Could R2 be out, but only if he heads towards 1B, rather than directly on 3B-2B-extended?

[maven]

14 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

How so.   I'm on second base, I lead off, fly ball to F8 is caught...he throws to second...I run back to the base, touch second base in time, but overrun it by mistake.  I've already touched the base I occupied.  I now have a choice to go to 2nd base or to 3rd base, do I not?

A runner who retreats behind a base (for whatever reason) is required to touch the base the "last time by," and doing so corrects any previous miss of that base. This provision is applied by philosophy in OBR and by rule in FED.

In your play, a runner who retreated behind 2B could "choose" to go 3B, but he would need to touch 2B again, his last time by, or be liable to be called out on appeal for missing 2B.

If you're wondering about the basis of the philosophy, the idea is that runners must by rule touch each base in order as they advance or retreat. They can be appealed for missing a base going either direction. So the authorities decided that the touch (or miss) that "counts" is the "last time by," in order to satisfy the requirement to touch all the bases. It seemed foolish to penalize a runner who had in fact touched a base (last time by) for a prior miss of the same base; but a runner who touched a base the "first time by" could gain an unfair advantage if he missed it on his last time by.

[noumpere]

18 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

How so.   I'm on second base, I lead off, fly ball to F8 is caught...he throws to second...I run back to the base, touch second base in time, but overrun it by mistake.  I've already touched the base I occupied.  I now have a choice to go to 2nd base or to 3rd base, do I not?

Here's a FED case play that's on point:

 

SITUATION 9: R1, on third base, attempts to score on a squeeze play. B4 attempts to bunt, but misses the pitch and F2 comes up with the ball and gets R1 in a rundown between third and home. F2 eventually attempts to throw R1 out at third, but makes a bad throw into left field. R1 steps on third, but his momentum takes him several steps down the foul line behind third base. R1, seeing the bad throw, turns, misses third base as he advances to home. After R1 has touched home plate and enters the dugout, the defense calls “Time” and verbally appeals R1 missing third. RULING: R1 is out on the valid defensive appeal. R1 must touch third base again on his way to home plate. (8-2-1, 8-2-6c)

[grayhawk]

You can only reinstate a force when a force condition is still possible (where the runner in question is forced by a following runner or the BR that has NOT been put out).  The force was removed the instant the catch was made in the outfield, so if either runner retouched before the ball arrived, they would have to be tagged to be put out.

[maven]

Agree with grayhawk. To put the same info differently:

Once a runner who is required to retouch does so, if he's off the base he's simply a runner off base. Rule on any action accordingly.

The other thing I'll add is that the provision in the rules allowing a runner to overrun 1B is restricted to the BR, and so does not extend to R1 retouching.

[Stk004]

34 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

 I know OBR clearly states if you touch a base you are forced to, and then retreat to the previous base for any reason, the force is back on.   I'm not finding any provisions about what happens if you simply touch an unoccupied base and then retreat to an unoccupied base, then want to advance past the base you just touched - couldn't that fall under the "runner makes his own path"?  Or should I interpret the force rule to imply that once you retreat you must retouch, no matter what.  Does this also mean that if I am on 2nd at the time of the pitch, round third base, retreat to third base on a throw, overrun the base, with F5 holding the ball, can I now try to retreat to second base?  I know that once you occupy a base at the time of the pitch you can not proceed to a previous base.   So, in the scenario I'm speaking of, if I occupied 2nd base at the time of the pitch, I can't return to first.   If I overrun 2nd base to the first base side, but I have successfully re-touched, I should be entitled to proceed to 3rd if I so choose...otherwise, in all practice I am indeed forced to 2nd base.   (and if that's the case, I take it that if I just sit there in no man's land and make no attempt to get to second base, that the second baseman with ball in hand can simply appeal - much like a runner that slides past home plate but fails to touch it?) 

See mavens comment. It doesn't matter if it's a force or not. You have to touch each base in order, whether you're going forwards or backwards. So if you run back to 2B and overrun it, you better touch it again on your way to 3rd.

[Stk004]

Think of it this way. Say we have R1 and R2 with a groundball to F5. The force is created by the batter becoming a runner. In your scenarios, once the flyball is caught, the batter has been retired so there isn't a force anymore. 

[JSam21]

12 hours ago, afaber12 said:

I'm relatively new to doing junior games, so I'm still getting used to players doing the unexpected. Even simple things like runners overrunning bases, and fielders not knowing to tag runners that do it. So a play caught me by surprise the other day in a game I was supervising - in our local junior league the younger age groups tend to be umpired by junior umpires who play in higher age groups, and when they do, there needs to be an adult supervisor - and though there was no question about the play from anyone at the time, I'm wondering if perhaps a call should have been made that wasn't.

Modified OBR (though the mods don't apply here), R1, less than 2 out. Fly ball caught by F8 coming in and towards RF. F8 throws to F3 to try and double off R1 who had stopped 1/3-1/2 way towards 2B. R1 gets back to 1B before F3 caught the ball while standing on the base. However R1 ran through the base by a couple of steps, and then returned to the base. F3 never even attempted to tag R1.

My initial thought at the time was that R1 retouched 1B ahead of the throw and so was safe on the "appeal" for leaving early, but that since they'd reinstated the force by going past 1B they were out when the base was tagged. Then I thought that couldn't be the case because BR was already out on the caught fly ball, so there was no force. I'm fairly confident that the runner was correctly called safe. But it got me thinking:

R1 and R2, less than 2 out. Fly ball to the outfield. Both runners leave their bases but hold partway to the next base waiting to see if the ball is caught or not. It is caught, and the runners return. Ball's thrown to 2B. R2 touches 2B before the fielder catches it while standing on the base, but the runner overruns the base. With only the tag of the base and not the runner, is R2 out? Could R2 be out, but only if he heads towards 1B, rather than directly on 3B-2B-extended?

You can never have a force condition when the batter has been retired...

[noumpere]

In addition to the correct "you can't have a force when the BR is retired" answers -- you also can only be forced to the NEXT base.  You can't re-instate a force to your current base.

 

So, in the OP, suppose F8 dropped the ball, but R2 thought it was caught and returned to and beyond second.  He's still NOT out if F4 is just touching second.  (R1 is out in this instance, though)

[Stk004]

1 minute ago, beerguy55 said:

I'm also thinking that in either scenario, where the runner overran their occupied base after re-touching it, he could conceivably proceed to the next base without touching that base again, because he has already occupied it.   In essence, even though he's on the first-base side of second base, he's effectively in a rundown between 2nd and 3rd.

He can do whatever he wants but he'll be out on appeal. 

[beerguy55]

Just now, Stk004 said:

He can do whatever he wants but he'll be out on appeal. 

How so.   I'm on second base, I lead off, fly ball to F8 is caught...he throws to second...I run back to the base, touch second base in time, but overrun it by mistake.  I've already touched the base I occupied.  I now have a choice to go to 2nd base or to 3rd base, do I not?

[Stk004]

3 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

How so.   I'm on second base, I lead off, fly ball to F8 is caught...he throws to second...I run back to the base, touch second base in time, but overrun it by mistake.  I've already touched the base I occupied.  I now have a choice to go to 2nd base or to 3rd base, do I not?

So what if you were stealing from 2B, round third, think the ball is caught so you touch third and take 2 steps towards 2nd, realize the ball dropped, then go home without touching 3B again? 

[beerguy55]

31 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

So what if you were stealing from 2B, round third, think the ball is caught so you touch third and take 2 steps towards 2nd, realize the ball dropped, then go home without touching 3B again? 

 I know OBR clearly states if you touch a base you are forced to, and then retreat to the previous base for any reason, the force is back on.   I'm not finding any provisions about what happens if you simply touch an unoccupied base and then retreat to an unoccupied base, then want to advance past the base you just touched - couldn't that fall under the "runner makes his own path"?  Or should I interpret the force rule to imply that once you retreat you must retouch, no matter what.  Does this also mean that if I am on 2nd at the time of the pitch, round third base, retreat to third base on a throw, overrun the base, with F5 holding the ball, can I now try to retreat to second base?  I know that once you occupy a base at the time of the pitch you can not proceed to a previous base.   So, in the scenario I'm speaking of, if I occupied 2nd base at the time of the pitch, I can't return to first.   If I overrun 2nd base to the first base side, but I have successfully re-touched, I should be entitled to proceed to 3rd if I so choose...otherwise, in all practice I am indeed forced to 2nd base.   (and if that's the case, I take it that if I just sit there in no man's land and make no attempt to get to second base, that the second baseman with ball in hand can simply appeal - much like a runner that slides past home plate but fails to touch it?) 

[beerguy55]

58 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Here's a FED case play that's on point:

 

SITUATION 9: R1, on third base, attempts to score on a squeeze play. B4 attempts to bunt, but misses the pitch and F2 comes up with the ball and gets R1 in a rundown between third and home. F2 eventually attempts to throw R1 out at third, but makes a bad throw into left field. R1 steps on third, but his momentum takes him several steps down the foul line behind third base. R1, seeing the bad throw, turns, misses third base as he advances to home. After R1 has touched home plate and enters the dugout, the defense calls “Time” and verbally appeals R1 missing third. RULING: R1 is out on the valid defensive appeal. R1 must touch third base again on his way to home plate. (8-2-1, 8-2-6c)

Excellent, thank you to you, maven, and stk004 for explaining that to me.   So, let's say in this situation he overruns third base, but F5 catches the ball.  F5 is between R1 and third base.  R1 can not retreat to second base, because he occupied third at the time of the pitch.  He has no choice but to get to third base - and I'm assuming he can't retreat down the foul line to the homerun fence.  And knowing that, F5 could just sit there and wait for R1 to come back.  Is there a point where R1 will be called out for not attempting to get to the base?  Or a point where F5 can appeal to blue?  Otherwise you could have a stalemate here.

[ALStripes17]

Here's a FED case play that's on point:

 

SITUATION 9: R1, on third base, attempts to score on a squeeze play. B4 attempts to bunt, but misses the pitch and F2 comes up with the ball and gets R1 in a rundown between third and home. F2 eventually attempts to throw R1 out at third, but makes a bad throw into left field. R1 steps on third, but his momentum takes him several steps down the foul line behind third base. R1, seeing the bad throw, turns, misses third base as he advances to home. After R1 has touched home plate and enters the dugout, the defense calls “Time” and verbally appeals R1 missing third. RULING: R1 is out on the valid defensive appeal. R1 must touch third base again on his way to home plate. (8-2-1, 8-2-6c)

Which amazes me. OBR and NCAA don't allow for retreating past a base occupied at TOP, do they?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[noumpere]

28 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Excellent, thank you to you, maven, and stk004 for explaining that to me.   So, let's say in this situation he overruns third base, but F5 catches the ball.  F5 is between R1 and third base.  R1 can not retreat to second base, because he occupied third at the time of the pitch.  He has no choice but to get to third base - and I'm assuming he can't retreat down the foul line to the homerun fence.  And knowing that, F5 could just sit there and wait for R1 to come back.  Is there a point where R1 will be called out for not attempting to get to the base?  Or a point where F5 can appeal to blue?  Otherwise you could have a stalemate here.

At some point you could have abandonment.  As a practical matter, R1 will only be a few feet from third.  F5 just walks up and tags him.

[beerguy55]

22 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

Which amazes me. OBR and NCAA don't allow for retreating past a base occupied at TOP, do they?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

OBR simply says that once you occupy a base at TOP you can not return to a previously occupied base.  I suppose conceivably you could run all the way back to second, as long as you don't pass other base runners (which would make them out), and as long as you're not making a travesty of the game, but you would not be safe standing on second base....your only safe haven is third base.

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

OBR simply says that once you occupy a base at TOP you can not return to a previously occupied base.  I suppose conceivably you could run all the way back to second, as long as you don't pass other base runners (which would make them out), and as long as you're not making a travesty of the game, but you would not be safe standing on second base....your only safe haven is third base.

That rule is for a runner who is trying to return to set up a steal in a R1-R3 situation, for example. It has nothing to do with the OP.

[Stk004]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

OBR simply says that once you occupy a base at TOP you can not return to a previously occupied base.  I suppose conceivably you could run all the way back to second, as long as you don't pass other base runners (which would make them out), and as long as you're not making a travesty of the game, but you would not be safe standing on second base....your only safe haven is third base.

Where does it say that?

[Senor Azul]

OBR 5.06 (7.00) Running the Bases

 (a) (7.01) Occupying the Base

(1) A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base. Rule 5.06(a)/5.06(c) Comment (Rule 7.01 Comment): If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

 

And here is the interpretation taken from the 2016 BRD (section 467 p. 311):

Wendelstedt:  If a runner tries to return to a previously occupied base after the pitcher has the ball on the pitcher’s plate, the umpire will call “Time” and call out the runner for running the bases in reverse.

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, Stk004 said:

Where does it say that?

Rule 5.06(a)/5.06(c) Comment (Rule 7.01 Comment): If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

[beerguy55]

I'm also thinking that in either scenario, where the runner overran their occupied base after re-touching it, he could conceivably proceed to the next base without touching that base again, because he has already occupied it.   In essence, even though he's on the first-base side of second base, he's effectively in a rundown between 2nd and 3rd.