Overrunning first base

[Guest Rod Guest]

I thought when you overran first you would have to ran straight down the foul line, then turn back (left or right) and proceed back to first base (is this true of false).  I was at a umpire clinic where one umpire stated that the runner could overrun by making a turn at first, stop and then go back to first without jeopardy.  Example given,  sallow hit to center field, the runner rounds first base by a few steps thereby to keep a good line of sight on the ball, seeing to ball coming back into the infield the player then turns back to first base and returns.   My opinion is that a player who rounds first is looking to advance, and now I am confused, is looking to advance the same as an attempt to advance?

[Richvee]

"rounding" 1B as one would do on a base hit to the outfield absolutely puts the batter runner in jeopardy of being tagged out. As you say, over running 1B down the line, and simply turning back  is fine...turning in either direction is fine. What the batter runner cannot do, is make any attempt towards 2B.

[ricka56]

1 hour ago, Guest Rod Guest said:

 I was at a umpire clinic where one umpire stated that the runner could overrun by making a turn at first, stop and then go back to first without jeopardy.

I would guess that he didn't correctly say what he meant...
... or you mis-heard what he said. 

Either way Richvee has the right dope.   

[rinbee]

OBR says a runner is not in jeopardy if he returns immediately to the base. 5.09(4) Exception. OBR does not stipulate in which direction the runner must go – directly down the line, into fair territory or into foul territory -- only that he returns immediately.  This is a judgment call, so a runner who rounds 1B as on a hit is not necessarily in jeopardy if he stops and returns immediately to the bag.  In this case I would give very little leeway.  Any hesitation on the part of the runner and he is in jeopardy in my book.

[ALStripes17]

OBR says a runner is not in jeopardy if he returns immediately to the base. 5.09(4) Exception. OBR does not stipulate in which direction the runner must go – directly down the line, into fair territory or into foul territory -- only that he returns immediately.  This is a judgment call, so a runner who rounds 1B as on a hit is not necessarily in jeopardy if he stops and returns immediately to the bag.  In this case I would give very little leeway.  Any hesitation on the part of the runner and he is in jeopardy in my book.

If there is any legitimate attempt or feint to 2B, then the runner is liable to be put out. A runner that rounds the bag on a single would be considered attempting to advance. Overrunning the bag is a lot different from rounding the bag...

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[rinbee]

3 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

If there is any legitimate attempt or feint to 2B, then the runner is liable to be put out. A runner that rounds the bag on a single would be considered attempting to advance. Overrunning the bag is a lot different from rounding the bag...

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Again, a judgment call as to whether the running is considering an advance or just locating the ball before returning to 1B.  Simply rounding the bag is not enough to assume advance.  A runner could go straight down the line or turn to foul territory and then feint an advance which would put him in jeopardy.  Again OBR does not stipulate in which direction a runner must turn to have overrun protection.

[ALStripes17]

Again, a judgment call as to whether the running is considering an advance or just locating the ball before returning to 1B.  Simply rounding the bag is not enough to assume advance.  A runner could go straight down the line or turn to foul territory and then feint an advance which would put him in jeopardy.  Again OBR does not stipulate in which direction a runner must turn to have overrun protection.

Speaking strictly OBR, I don't know of any umpire in the professional ranks that would judge a round of 1B as simply 'overrunning and returning.' We are not reinventing the wheel here. Your interpretation is not accepted anywhere. Why do we have the overrun/overslide caveat?

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[rinbee]

8 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

Speaking strictly OBR, I don't know of any umpire in the professional ranks that would judge a round of 1B as simply 'overrunning and returning.' We are not reinventing the wheel here

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That's fine.  Your judgment, not mine.  Leave it at that.

[ALStripes17]

That's fine.  Your judgment, not mine.  Leave it at that.

And every other legitimate umpire's judgment... Rounding 1B is not an interp up for debate. That is an attempt to advance to 2B.

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[ElkOil]

45 minutes ago, rinbee said:

OBR says a runner is not in jeopardy if he returns immediately to the base. 5.09(4) Exception. OBR does not stipulate in which direction the runner must go – directly down the line, into fair territory or into foul territory -- only that he returns immediately.  This is a judgment call, so a runner who rounds 1B as on a hit is not necessarily in jeopardy if he stops and returns immediately to the bag.  In this case I would give very little leeway.  Any hesitation on the part of the runner and he is in jeopardy in my book.

Can you cite a better source? This is OBR 5.09:

5.09
The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when --
(a) A pitched ball touches a batter, or his clothing, while in his legal batting position; runners, if forced, advance;
(b) The plate umpire interferes with the catchers throw; runners may not advance.
NOTE: The interference shall be disregarded if the catchers throw retires the runner.
(c) A balk is committed; runners advance; (See Penalty 8.05).
(d) A ball is illegally batted; runners return;
(e) A foul ball is not caught; runners return. The umpire shall not put the ball in play until all runners have retouched their bases;
(f) A fair ball touches a runner or an umpire on fair territory before it touches an infielder including the pitcher, or touches an umpire before it has passed an infielder other than the pitcher;
Rule 5.09(f) Comment: If a fair ball touches an umpire working in the infield after it has bounded past, or over, the pitcher, it is a dead ball. If a batted ball is deflected by a fielder in fair territory and hits a runner or an umpire while still in flight and then is caught by an infielder it shall not be a catch, but the ball shall remain in play. If a fair ball goes through, or by, an infielder, and touches a runner immediately back of him, or touches a runner after being deflected by an infielder, the ball is in play and the umpire shall not declare the runner out. In making such decision the umpire must be convinced that the ball passed through, or by, the infielder and that no other infielder had the chance to make a play on the ball; runners advance, if forced; 
(g) A pitched ball lodges in the umpires or catchers mask or paraphernalia, and remains out of play, runners advance one base;
Rule 5.09(g) Comment: If a foul tip hits the umpire and is caught by a fielder on the rebound, the ball is dead and the batsman cannot be called out. The same shall apply where such foul tip lodges in the umpires mask or other paraphernalia.
If a third strike (not a foul tip) passes the catcher and hits an umpire, the ball is in play. If such ball rebounds and is caught by a fielder before it touches the ground, the batsman is not out on such a catch, but the ball remains in play and the batsman may be retired at first base, or touched with the ball for the out.
If a pitched ball lodges in the umpires or catchers mask or paraphernalia, and remains out of play, on the third strike or fourth ball, then the batter is entitled to first base and all runners advance one base. If the count on the batter is less than three balls, runners advance one base.
(h) Any legal pitch touches a runner trying to score; runners advance.

[rinbee]

12 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

And every other legitimate umpire's judgment... Rounding 1B is not an interp up for debate. That is an attempt to advance to 2B.

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Wow.  Don't have to get personal Blue.  I know plenty of "legitimate" umpires who will not punish a runner for turning into the field as long as there is no perceivable intent to advance.  If rounding 1B is not up for debate why not state it explicitly in OBR? I guess in your judgment the runner who turns toward foul territory is looking for a seat in the stands.  OBR leaves plenty of room to exercise judgment.  Park the attitude and keep the discussion professional and constructive. 

[ALStripes17]

Wow.  Don't have to get personal Blue.  I know plenty of "legitimate" umpires who will not punish a runner for turning into the field as long as there is no perceivable intent to advance.  If rounding 1B is not up for debate why not state it explicitly in OBR? I guess in your judgment the runner who turns toward foul territory is looking for a seat in the stands.  OBR leaves plenty of room to exercise judgment.  Park the attitude and keep the discussion professional and constructive. 

Putting words in my mouth is no bueno either. Nowhere have I discussed any type of turn other than rounding the bag...when you have a throw behind from RF on a BR that simply rounds without advancing and call him Safe... Good luck to you

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[rinbee]

17 minutes ago, ElkOil said:

Can you cite a better source? This is OBR 5.09:

5.09
The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when --
(a) A pitched ball touches a batter, or his clothing, while in his legal batting position; runners, if forced, advance;
(b) The plate umpire interferes with the catchers throw; runners may not advance.
NOTE: The interference shall be disregarded if the catchers throw retires the runner.
(c) A balk is committed; runners advance; (See Penalty 8.05).
(d) A ball is illegally batted; runners return;
(e) A foul ball is not caught; runners return. The umpire shall not put the ball in play until all runners have retouched their bases;
(f) A fair ball touches a runner or an umpire on fair territory before it touches an infielder including the pitcher, or touches an umpire before it has passed an infielder other than the pitcher;
Rule 5.09(f) Comment: If a fair ball touches an umpire working in the infield after it has bounded past, or over, the pitcher, it is a dead ball. If a batted ball is deflected by a fielder in fair territory and hits a runner or an umpire while still in flight and then is caught by an infielder it shall not be a catch, but the ball shall remain in play. If a fair ball goes through, or by, an infielder, and touches a runner immediately back of him, or touches a runner after being deflected by an infielder, the ball is in play and the umpire shall not declare the runner out. In making such decision the umpire must be convinced that the ball passed through, or by, the infielder and that no other infielder had the chance to make a play on the ball; runners advance, if forced; 
(g) A pitched ball lodges in the umpires or catchers mask or paraphernalia, and remains out of play, runners advance one base;
Rule 5.09(g) Comment: If a foul tip hits the umpire and is caught by a fielder on the rebound, the ball is dead and the batsman cannot be called out. The same shall apply where such foul tip lodges in the umpires mask or other paraphernalia.
If a third strike (not a foul tip) passes the catcher and hits an umpire, the ball is in play. If such ball rebounds and is caught by a fielder before it touches the ground, the batsman is not out on such a catch, but the ball remains in play and the batsman may be retired at first base, or touched with the ball for the out.
If a pitched ball lodges in the umpires or catchers mask or paraphernalia, and remains out of play, on the third strike or fourth ball, then the batter is entitled to first base and all runners advance one base. If the count on the batter is less than three balls, runners advance one base.
(h) Any legal pitch touches a runner trying to score; runners advance.

 

Sorry, I was citing the 2015 edition which was reorganized.  In earlier editions it is 7.08(c) 

[BretMan]

1 hour ago, rinbee said:

Again, a judgment call as to whether the running is considering an advance or just locating the ball before returning to 1B.  Simply rounding the bag is not enough to assume advance.  A runner could go straight down the line or turn to foul territory and then feint an advance which would put him in jeopardy.  Again OBR does not stipulate in which direction a runner must turn to have overrun protection.

The issue here isn't which way a runner can turn to have overrun protection. You seem to be confusing overrunning first base and rounding first base. They really are two completely different things.

Overrunning first base is when the runner goes across the bag and straight up the foul line. At that point, an umpire might need to make a judgment on whether the runner returned directly to first, or if he made some effort or movement to advance toward second (and no, this is NOT based merely on whether the runner turned left or right before coming back to first base).

Rounding first base is when the runner takes a curved path around first. Picture a runner who has singled to the outfield, then takes a curved path at first base and heads a little past the base in the general direction of second base. That move should ALWAYS be considered an attempt to advance to second and it would ALWAYS eliminate the overrun protection.

[ElkOil]

30 minutes ago, rinbee said:

 

Sorry, I was citing the 2015 edition which was reorganized.  In earlier editions it is 7.08(c) 

Okay. The exception you cite states: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base.

Rounding the base is not overrunning. These are two completely different things. See @BretMan's comment above.

[maven]

[ricka56]

5 hours ago, rinbee said:

Again, a judgment call as to whether the running is considering an advance or just locating the ball before returning to 1B.  Simply rounding the bag is not enough to assume advance.

That is completely absurd.

4 hours ago, rinbee said:

I know plenty of "legitimate" umpires who will not punish a runner for turning into the field as long as there is no perceivable intent to advance.  

No, you don't.

Troll alert indicator is twitching. 

[ZebraStripes]

1 hour ago, rinbee said:

That's fine.  Your judgment, not mine.  Leave it at that.

you have got to be kidding me

[ElkOil]

33 minutes ago, ricka56 said:

That is absurd.

No, you don't.

Troll alert indicator is twitching. 

The Troll is strong with this one.

[umpstu]

1 hour ago, rinbee said:

Wow.  Don't have to get personal Blue.  I know plenty of "legitimate" umpires who will not punish a runner for turning into the field as long as there is no perceivable intent to advance.  If rounding 1B is not up for debate why not state it explicitly in OBR? I guess in your judgment the runner who turns toward foul territory is looking for a seat in the stands.  OBR leaves plenty of room to exercise judgment.  Park the attitude and keep the discussion professional and constructive. 

So, a guy hits a single to right field, the BR rounds first base. The RF then throws a bullet to the 1B who applies a tag to the runner on his return to the base while he is off the base.  Are you telling me that the runner is not out?  Seriously?  The batter runner can over run the base and return, but as soon as I see him round that bag he puts his self in jeopardy of being tagged off the base.

[maineump]

21 hours ago, rinbee said:

OBR says a runner is not in jeopardy if he returns immediately to the base. 5.09(4) Exception. OBR does not stipulate in which direction the runner must go – directly down the line, into fair territory or into foul territory -- only that he returns immediately.  This is a judgment call, so a runner who rounds 1B as on a hit is not necessarily in jeopardy if he stops and returns immediately to the bag.  In this case I would give very little leeway.  Any hesitation on the part of the runner and he is in jeopardy in my book.

Just a simple question - How many steps does the runner get when 'rounding' 1B before he can come back safely? Can he get 1/4 the way to 2B and then state it was momentum that took him that far?    To simply look at this = Did the runner run straight through the base then return or did he hit the base and next step or 2 took him towards 2B?

[udbrky]

I like Occham's Razor a lot. If one person only says it's one way, is it likely that everyone else is completely wrong?

[Rich Ives]

On 4/11/2016 at 11:51 AM, rinbee said:

OBR says a runner is not in jeopardy if he returns immediately to the base. 5.09(4) Exception. OBR does not stipulate in which direction the runner must go – directly down the line, into fair territory or into foul territory -- only that he returns immediately.  This is a judgment call, so a runner who rounds 1B as on a hit is not necessarily in jeopardy if he stops and returns immediately to the bag.  In this case I would give very little leeway.  Any hesitation on the part of the runner and he is in jeopardy in my book.

Try 7.08 (j) (old numbers)  He fails to return at once to first base after overrunning or oversliding that base. If
he attempts to run to second he is out when tagged.

If he's running toward 2B why is that not an attempt?

[maven]

3 hours ago, udbrky said:

I like Occham's Razor a lot. If one person only says it's one way, is it likely that everyone else is completely wrong?

Are your two sentences related? Your question does not express Ockham's Razor.

[udbrky]

3 hours ago, maven said:

Are your two sentences related? Your question does not express Ockham's Razor.

I went with the simplest method and implied the option - one person is wrong or everyone else is.