Throwing to an unoccupied base

[lscoach]

Hey Guys,

First, thank you.  I have learned a ton and this site and it's made my dealings and conversations with umpires much more efficient and cordial.  I have a bet going with a friend of mine and I need some help on rule reference and if possible, multiple responses.  This is OBR rule set and here's the scenarios.

1.  R1 and pitcher in the set.  Pitcher comes set and R1 takes off for second before the pitch is delivered.  Pitcher wheels and throws to second.  Is this a balk?

2. R2 and pitcher is in the set.  Pitcher comes set and R2 takes off from second before the pitch is delivered.  The pitcher, without disengaging steps directly to 3rd with his free foot and throws to F5 to retire the base runner.  Is this a balk?

Here's what I have so far:

(4) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a
throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of
making a play;
Rule 6.02 (a)(4) Comment (Rule 8.05(d ) Comment ): When
determining whether the pitcher throws or feints a throw to an
unoccupied base for the purpose of making a play, the umpire
should consider whether a runner on the previous base demonstrates
or otherwise creates an impression of his intent to
advance to such unoccupied base.

Anything else you can add as far as interpretations (I don't have those, only the rule book) would be greatly appreciated.

Edited June 17, 2015 by lscoach

[johnnyg08]

Hey Guys,

First, thank you.  I have learned a ton and this site and it's made my dealings and conversations with umpires much more efficient and cordial.  I have a bet going with a friend of mine and I need some help on rule reference and if possible, multiple responses.  This is OBR rule set and here's the scenarios.

1.  R1 and pitcher in the set.  Pitcher comes set and R1 takes off for second before the pitch is delivered.  Pitcher wheels and throws to second.  Is this a balk?

2. R2 and pitcher is in the set.  Pitcher comes set and R2 takes off from second before the pitch is delivered.  The pitcher, without disengaging steps directly to 3rd with his free foot and throws to F5 to retire the base runner.  Is this a balk?

Here's what I have so far:

(4) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a
throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of
making a play;
Rule 6.02 (a)(4) Comment (Rule 8.05(d ) Comment ): When
determining whether the pitcher throws or feints a throw to an
unoccupied base for the purpose of making a play, the umpire
should consider whether a runner on the previous base demonstrates
or otherwise creates an impression of his intent to
advance to such unoccupied base.

Anything else you can add as far as interpretations (I don't have those, only the rule book) would be greatly appreciated.

​As you describe, legal in all rule sets.  

[ElkOil]

I've got no balk in both scenarios.  As long as the pitcher steps toward the base he's throwing to, he can do so while still on the rubber.  Once he steps off, he's no longer a pitcher, but an infielder, and is free from the pitching regulations.

[Thunderheads]

I concur w/ the gentlemen above .....  that's nothing ....and legal (for purposes of making a play)

[maven]

Coach, I hope you bet on "not a balk." Twice.

[noumpere]

Hey Guys,

First, thank you.  I have learned a ton and this site and it's made my dealings and conversations with umpires much more efficient and cordial.  I have a bet going with a friend of mine and I need some help on rule reference and if possible, multiple responses.  This is OBR rule set and here's the scenarios.

1.  R1 and pitcher in the set.  Pitcher comes set and R1 takes off for second before the pitch is delivered.  Pitcher wheels and throws to second.  Is this a balk?

2. R2 and pitcher is in the set.  Pitcher comes set and R2 takes off from second before the pitch is delivered.  The pitcher, without disengaging steps directly to 3rd with his free foot and throws to F5 to retire the base runner.  Is this a balk?

Here's what I have so far:

(4) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a
throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of
making a play;
Rule 6.02 (a)(4) Comment (Rule 8.05(d ) Comment ): When
determining whether the pitcher throws or feints a throw to an
unoccupied base for the purpose of making a play, the umpire
should consider whether a runner on the previous base demonstrates
or otherwise creates an impression of his intent to
advance to such unoccupied base.

Anything else you can add as far as interpretations (I don't have those, only the rule book) would be greatly appreciated.

​For any reasonable person, you shouldn't need anything else.

 

And, in most instances, the book shows ILlegal activities -- if it's not listed, it's legal.  So, rather than you showing your friend it's legal, he should show where it's not.

[Mudder]

Both are not balks as described, but the question might then become was the "play" at the advancing to base play a legit play....did the runner actual go to the next base, did he take a few steps then retreat, did the runner motion to go and the pitcher threw to the next base only on hearing the word of his teammates, "he's going"

[MooseLoop]

Assuming "before the pitch is delivered" means before the pitching motion has begun, and does not include after pitcher is committed to pitch but before he actually releases the ball.

[DVA7130]

#2 As described legal, but careful with this one. If he doesn't throw it is a balk. About #1 as well, consider the quality of the umpire crew: It is a common myth among many undertrained umpires as well.

[scrounge]

#2 As described legal, but careful with this one. If he doesn't throw it is a balk. About #1 as well, consider the quality of the umpire crew: It is a common myth among many undertrained umpires as well.

​

Agreed. It isn't a balk in either scenario as described - but can I promise that it won't get called by someone who just hasn't seen it before or just plain gets it wrong? I cannot.

[lscoach]

Thanks guys,

I did indeed bet it was legal.  Mudder, can you please elaborate?  It's my understanding that if the pitcher is legitimately under the impression the runner is going, it's still legal.  Is there a difference in this for Fed vs OBR?

[maven]

Thanks guys,

I did indeed bet it was legal.  Mudder, can you please elaborate?  It's my understanding that if the pitcher is legitimately under the impression the runner is going, it's still legal.  Is there a difference in this for Fed vs OBR?

​You are correct.

There is a very slight rule difference between the codes that should be ignored in amateur ball.

[Mudder]

​You are correct.

There is a very slight rule difference between the codes that should be ignored in amateur ball.

​Its purely a judgement call by the ump, but a lot of runners will try and draw this balk.  To me if the runner is in motion when F1 starts to throw over (PU's call), its a play, what happens after that is irrelevant as far as determining if a play is on.  Some inexperienced pitchers will panic and throw to the next base without checking on the runner first, and the runner could be flat footed, then I'd say balk.

[noumpere]

To add to Maven:

 

The FED rule is that it's legal if the runner advances or feints an advance.

 

The OBR rule (from above) is that it's legal if  "a runner on the previous base demonstrates or otherwise creates an impression of his intent to advance to such unoccupied base."

[indianaumpire15]

So if R2 gives the impression (in umpire judgement) he is going to 3B but stops and F1 steps towards an unoccupied 3B without a throw or feinting a throw, that is legal in all codes?  What if he then throws behind R2 trying to return to 2B?  Just want to make sure I am interpreting this correctly.

You guys have no idea how much better of an umpire you've made me, especially when it comes to understanding the intricacies of balks.

Edited June 17, 2015 by indianaumpire15

[basejester]

In case you're wondering, it's not a balk if the catcher throws to unoccupied base.

 

[maven]

In case you're wondering, it's not a balk if the catcher throws to unoccupied base.

 

​Some of us might find that suggestion silly, but there's a YouTube video of that very call.

[MPLSMatt]

So if R2 gives the impression (in umpire judgement) he is going to 3B but stops and F1 steps towards an unoccupied 3B without a throw or feinting a throw, that is legal in all codes?  What if he then throws behind R2 trying to return to 2B?  Just want to make sure I am interpreting this correctly.

You guys have no idea how much better of an umpire you've made me, especially when it comes to understanding the intricacies of balls.

​I think that issue that's being eluded to is that stepping to 3b and not throwing is now a balk in OBR.  If the pitcher does not disengage, he has to complete his throw to 3b or it's considered to be a feint and then a balk.   Again only OBR (someone clarify NCAA - can't recall if they've adopted that yet), in FED feints to 3b are still fine so no balk. 

[basejester]

​Some of us might find that suggestion silly, but there's a YouTube video of that very call.

[noumpere]

So if R2 gives the impression (in umpire judgement) he is going to 3B but stops and F1 steps towards an unoccupied 3B without a throw or feinting a throw, that is legal in all codes?  What if he then throws behind R2 trying to return to 2B?  Just want to make sure I am interpreting this correctly.

You guys have no idea how much better of an umpire you've made me, especially when it comes to understanding the intricacies of balks.

​Just to clarify, on a feint, you only need to step.  Arm motion is not required.  And, arm motion without a step is a balk in all codes -- even if the ball isn't thrown.

 

(Any feint to third is illegal in OBR; legal in FED and NCAA)

[indianaumpire15]

​Just to clarify, on a feint, you only need to step.  Arm motion is not required.  And, arm motion without a step is a balk in all codes -- even if the ball isn't thrown.

 

(Any feint to third is illegal in OBR; legal in FED and NCAA)

Got you, thanks.

[ElkOil]

In case you're wondering, it's not a balk if the catcher throws to unoccupied base.

 

​Nice tie-in.  Well-played.

[Jimurray]

In case you're wondering, it's not a balk if the catcher throws to unoccupied base.

 

Even if the runner justs feints going there.