Clarification on call

[Rennolds]

Morning Blues,

 

Little League Major game working alone. Batter swings at dropped third strike and begins to walk to home dugout. F2 retrieves ball and at a skip goes after the BR. Due to the distance between them and the fact that F2 did not run after him this takes longer then you would think to reach the BR allowing BR to walk pretty far towards dugout. I call BR out just before F2 applies a glove tag with no ball in it. BR continues to dugout where coach physically stops him from entering and pushes him towards first base. This is LL, mom is already in my ear, volume set to excelsior. 

 

As a league Board Member I have to wear two hats even as I umpire so my steps may seem a little off, disregard the spectator portion. I call time louder then anyone should have to. I get my parents back in their seats and explain again for the 100th time how I am the volunteer umpire and how there are only two managers. Due to this my parents also know that I explain things like this to the managers at HP where they can hear as well and hopefully learn something new.

 

I call BR out for leaving the set base path created when F2 attempted to apply a tag. I explained how if F2 did not attempt a play I would have waited until BR reach dugout (again LL) and he can walk to center field for all I care. The no ball tag had nothing to do with the out call. Everyone seemed to accept this as the correct call except one, I am an umpire too, parent who keep the issue going. Two inning later I made a point of making this same parent Google another call he said I have backwards, he seems to thing the hands are made of wood. Good call, blown call, given wrong reason? Either way the BR is out as my final shut the hell up about the play was the fact that the manager can not help the BR by stopping him from entering the dugout and pushing him to first so he is out twice in my books.

[maven]

You're making up a lot there.

IIRC, in OBR the BR is out in this sitch when he leaves the dirt circle. That's all you need.

[grayhawk]

So much to comment on, but I'd like to focus on this:

I call BR out just before F2 applies a glove tag with no ball in it.

Why did you do this? It doesn't sound like the BR was trying to avoid a tag, but rather just walking to his dugout.

[grayhawk]

You're making up a lot there.

IIRC, in OBR the BR is out in this sitch when he leaves the dirt circle. That's all you need.

@maven, even though LL is based on OBR, there are differences and this is one of them. He's not out until he enters the dugout on a U3K.

[Rich Ives]

You're making up a lot there.

IIRC, in OBR the BR is out in this sitch when he leaves the dirt circle. That's all you need.

 

LL still uses "enters the dugout" as the demarcation line.

[noumpere]

So much to comment on, but I'd like to focus on this:

 

I call BR out just before F2 applies a glove tag with no ball in it.

Why did you do this? It doesn't sound like the BR was trying to avoid a tag, but rather just walking to his dugout.

 

I agree with this -- it's not only picking up the dirty end of the stick, you're the one who made the stick dirty in the first place.

[basejester]

The spirit of this rule covers your situation, but it surely doesn't apply literally.

 

7.09 It is interference by a batter or a runner when—

. . .

(h) In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by
touching or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third
base or first base.

 

There's a possible violation here, but there's no penalty specified:

 

XIV -- FIELD DECORUM

. . .

(d) A manager or coach shall not leave the bench or dugout except to confer with a player or an umpire and only after receiving permission from an umpire.

[Jimurray]

The spirit of this rule covers your situation, but it surely doesn't apply literally.

 

7.09 It is interference by a batter or a runner when—

. . .

(h) In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by

touching or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third

base or first base.

 

There's a possible violation here, but there's no penalty specified:

 

XIV -- FIELD DECORUM

. . .

(d) A manager or coach shall not leave the bench or dugout except to confer with a player or an umpire and only after receiving permission from an umpire.

I think the OBR interp is any member of the offensive team other than an active runner assists a runner in advancing or returning to a base. Which would make the dugout push an out.

I have used the base path rule to call out batters in as in the OP. Some coaches teach a deke walk away and I'm not going to guess if the catcher is chasing after the batter.

[Rich Ives]

 

The spirit of this rule covers your situation, but it surely doesn't apply literally.

 

7.09 It is interference by a batter or a runner when—

. . .

(h) In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by

touching or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third

base or first base.

 

There's a possible violation here, but there's no penalty specified:

 

XIV -- FIELD DECORUM

. . .

(d) A manager or coach shall not leave the bench or dugout except to confer with a player or an umpire and only after receiving permission from an umpire.

.

I have used the base path rule to call out batters in as in the OP. Some coaches teach a deke walk away and I'm not going to guess if the catcher is chasing after the batter.

 

 

And you are wrong.

 

And the runner can deke all he wants, but until there is actually a tag attempt he cannot be not guilty of violating any basepath rule.

[Jimurray]

The spirit of this rule covers your situation, but it surely doesn't apply literally.

 7.09 It is interference by a batter or a runner when—. . .(h) In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by

touching or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third

base or first base.

 

There's a possible violation here, but there's no penalty specified:

 XIV -- FIELD DECORUM. . .(d) A manager or coach shall not leave the bench or dugout except to confer with a player or an umpire and only after receiving permission from an umpire.

.I have used the base path rule to call out batters in as in the OP. Some coaches teach a deke walk away and I'm not going to guess if the catcher is chasing after the batter.

 

And you are wrong.

 

And the runner can deke all he wants, but until there is actually a tag attempt he cannot be not guilty of violating any basepath rule. I call the out when there is a tag attempt in the chase.

[Rennolds]

So much to comment on, but I'd like to focus on this:

 

 

I call BR out just before F2 applies a glove tag with no ball in it.

Why did you do this? It doesn't sound like the BR was trying to avoid a tag, but rather just walking to his dugout.

 

 

This is more of the clarification I was meaning to ask, not having the "rules" memorized in my head as a new umpire.

 

I called him out because in my judgment F2 was making a clear attempt to tag him out. He could have thrown to first, but instead jogged after the BR. Avoiding the tag or not, it is my understanding that as soon as a play is attempted on him he now has one place and one place only to walk / run / skip / dance to and that is first base. I even allowed a little extra room until he was well right of an reasonable line to first.

[FleasOf1000Camels]

Don't go picking for buggers.

Just wait for him to step in the dugout, or get tagged.

[basejester]

The interpretations will tell you the tag attempt ends once the runner passes the fielder.  Out of basepath shouldn't be the call.

[Rich Ives]

 

So much to comment on, but I'd like to focus on this:

 

 

I call BR out just before F2 applies a glove tag with no ball in it.

Why did you do this? It doesn't sound like the BR was trying to avoid a tag, but rather just walking to his dugout.

 

 

This is more of the clarification I was meaning to ask, not having the "rules" memorized in my head as a new umpire.

 

I called him out because in my judgment F2 was making a clear attempt to tag him out. He could have thrown to first, but instead jogged after the BR. Avoiding the tag or not, it is my understanding that as soon as a play is attempted on him he now has one place and one place only to walk / run / skip / dance to and that is first base. I even allowed a little extra room until he was well right of an reasonable line to first.

 

 

He was walking away from the catcher - back to the catcher. How would he know that there was a play attempt? Use some common sense here.

[Jimurray]

So much to comment on, but I'd like to focus on this:

 

 

I call BR out just before F2 applies a glove tag with no ball in it.

Why did you do this? It doesn't sound like the BR was trying to avoid a tag, but rather just walking to his dugout.

 

This is more of the clarification I was meaning to ask, not having the "rules" memorized in my head as a new umpire.

 

I called him out because in my judgment F2 was making a clear attempt to tag him out. He could have thrown to first, but instead jogged after the BR. Avoiding the tag or not, it is my understanding that as soon as a play is attempted on him he now has one place and one place only to walk / run / skip / dance to and that is first base. I even allowed a little extra room until he was well right of an reasonable line to first.

 

He was walking away from the catcher - back to the catcher. How would he know that there was a play attempt? Use some common sense here.

OBR used common sense in changing the dugout to the dirt circle. In codes that still retain the dugout it is using common sense to get the out within the rules.

[Rennolds]

 

 

So much to comment on, but I'd like to focus on this:

 

 

I call BR out just before F2 applies a glove tag with no ball in it.

Why did you do this? It doesn't sound like the BR was trying to avoid a tag, but rather just walking to his dugout.

 

 

This is more of the clarification I was meaning to ask, not having the "rules" memorized in my head as a new umpire.

 

I called him out because in my judgment F2 was making a clear attempt to tag him out. He could have thrown to first, but instead jogged after the BR. Avoiding the tag or not, it is my understanding that as soon as a play is attempted on him he now has one place and one place only to walk / run / skip / dance to and that is first base. I even allowed a little extra room until he was well right of an reasonable line to first.

 

 

He was walking away from the catcher - back to the catcher. How would he know that there was a play attempt? Use some common sense here.

 

 

 Ignorance of a rule violation isn't my concern I wouldn't think.

[Rennolds]

Don't go picking for buggers.

Just wait for him to step in the dugout, or get tagged.

 

I normally do just that. I know how I would re do it, like most thing, I would have done it differently. In this case as the BR was walking away I was going to just wait for the tag, but it just dragged out so in my head my initial ruling was out of basepath and he is going to tag him anyway. When he pulled the no ball deal it was SH*# or get off the pot so I felt confident in the out of path call. Learn something new every night. thanks for the insights.

[basejester]

 

 

 

So much to comment on, but I'd like to focus on this:

 

 

I call BR out just before F2 applies a glove tag with no ball in it.

Why did you do this? It doesn't sound like the BR was trying to avoid a tag, but rather just walking to his dugout.

 

 

This is more of the clarification I was meaning to ask, not having the "rules" memorized in my head as a new umpire.

 

I called him out because in my judgment F2 was making a clear attempt to tag him out. He could have thrown to first, but instead jogged after the BR. Avoiding the tag or not, it is my understanding that as soon as a play is attempted on him he now has one place and one place only to walk / run / skip / dance to and that is first base. I even allowed a little extra room until he was well right of an reasonable line to first.

 

 

He was walking away from the catcher - back to the catcher. How would he know that there was a play attempt? Use some common sense here.

 

 

 Ignorance of a rule violation isn't my concern I wouldn't think.

 

That's not what's he getting at.  Going out of the basepath requires intent by the runner.

 

7.08 Any runner is out when—

(a) (1) He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged

unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A

runner’s baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight

line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely; or

(2) after touching first base, he leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his

effort to touch the next base;

[UMP45]

It can't be a tag attempt. He didn't have the ball in his glove.

[noumpere]

It can't be a tag attempt. He didn't have the ball in his glove.

???

 

Maybe I'm missing something

[Rennolds]

 

 

 

 

So much to comment on, but I'd like to focus on this:

 

 

I call BR out just before F2 applies a glove tag with no ball in it.

Why did you do this? It doesn't sound like the BR was trying to avoid a tag, but rather just walking to his dugout.

 

 

This is more of the clarification I was meaning to ask, not having the "rules" memorized in my head as a new umpire.

 

I called him out because in my judgment F2 was making a clear attempt to tag him out. He could have thrown to first, but instead jogged after the BR. Avoiding the tag or not, it is my understanding that as soon as a play is attempted on him he now has one place and one place only to walk / run / skip / dance to and that is first base. I even allowed a little extra room until he was well right of an reasonable line to first.

 

 

He was walking away from the catcher - back to the catcher. How would he know that there was a play attempt? Use some common sense here.

 

 

 Ignorance of a rule violation isn't my concern I wouldn't think.

 

That's not what's he getting at.  Going out of the basepath requires intent by the runner.

 

7.08 Any runner is out when—

(a) (1) He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged

unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A

runner’s baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight

line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely; or

(2) after touching first base, he leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his

effort to touch the next base;

 

 

ah got ya, thanks. yeah makes sense now. Hindsight I should have just let it keep going. Will know better next time.

[Richvee]

 "BR continues to dugout where coach physically stops him from entering and pushes him towards first base."

 

This is interference by a member of the offensive team. Call the out right there. 

[Jimurray]

"BR continues to dugout where coach physically stops him from entering and pushes him towards first base."

 

This is interference by a member of the offensive team. Call the out right there.

As per my post #6, other than an active runner.

[UMP45]

 

It can't be a tag attempt. He didn't have the ball in his glove.

???

 

Maybe I'm missing something

 

Read the op. The catcher attempted to tag the runner. The ball was not in his glove. There can't be a tag without the ball.

[Rich Ives]

 "BR continues to dugout where coach physically stops him from entering and pushes him towards first base."

 

This is interference by a member of the offensive team. Call the out right there. 

 

What if, instead of grabbing the batter-runner, the coach slams the dugout gate in his face and says "go to first".

[Larry in TN]

Read the op. The catcher attempted to tag the runner. The ball was not in his glove. There can't be a tag without the ball.

Of course, under LL rules, a fake tag is OBS. The OHC should have argued for an award of 1B! :)