Baiting A Coach

[BillKen]

Have you ever baited a coach?  If so, are you willing to tell on yourself and if it was worth it?

 

I think I may have baited one and don't feel too bad about it.  He had been a jerk since the 2nd batter in the bottom of the 1st when he came out of his dugout to implore that I check with my partner on a checked swing.  It was a righty and my partner was in C.  The kid didn't go, I had a great look at it, didn't need help and owned the call.  He belabored the argument to the point where I had to say, "Coach, I'm going to turn around and go back to the plate and if you aren't headed to your dugout when I get there, you will be ejected."  He complied.  Later in the game, his assistant was arguing balls and strikes from the coaches box and I pointed directly at him and told him "That's Enough...Knock It Off!"  After the inning ended, I casually moved up the line and told the HC that if he didn't get AC in line, that I would.  He copped an attitude with me and I just blew him off and told him this was my last time to be nice.

 

Bottom of the 6th and he comes out on me again for another checked swing...batter clearly didn't go and again my partner was in C.  I'm admittedly not happy to see him and he loudly exclaims that I've got to check my partner on that.  I said, "Sure coach, I'll check...Hey Blue, You didn't have a strike there did you?"  He signaled safe and masked his laughter.  The coach went ballistic..."That's a bullSH*# way to ask for an appeal!  Do you think I'm stupid?  Do you think I don't know what just happened?"  I said "No coach, I'd be really disappointed in you if you didn't get it.  I've given you a great zone tonight and I'm done with you arguing balls and strikes."  He then walked over and drew a line on each side of the plate to show me where my zone had been all night.  He was done before he got the first one drawn.  After dumping him, he give me a full lecture on being professional and how I wasn't moving my feet and how I didn't check the pitcher for pine tar correctly and asked me if I had ever been to umpire school.  I gave him the Jerry Lane silent treatment which really sent him to the moon...so he went back to the plate and covered it all with dirt.  I resisted telling him that he missed a spot. He then gave me some more umpiring pointers before going to the dugout and throwing a bucket of balls and 3 helmets onto the field.

 

Should I feel bad?  Turn in my card?  Go to camp?  Shoot myself?

[StrikeDavis]

What was the score in the bottom of the 6th?    

[UMP45]

If you were playing OBR rules you HAVE to check if he asks. Just because your partner is in C is irrelevant. 

[StrikeDavis]

To piggy back off UMP45 with the OBR reference... Our chapter rules interpreter gave us a tip for the coaches that want you to go for help every time a batter flinches.  If as a plate umpire you want an honest opinion from your partner, come out hard (with your left hand) "BillKen, DID HE GO?"  If you know he didn't go and you just want to appease the head coach, wait a second or two, point less emphatically and ask in a conversational tone, "BillKen, did he go?"  If you pre-game this with your partner, he should know what you want from him and the coach will just think you asked for help.    

[ricka56]

If you were playing OBR rules you HAVE to check if he asks. Just because your partner is in C is irrelevant. 

 

I can't see where the OP said that his partner's position was relevant. What is irrelevant are posters who pick the tiniest of issues (usually with no relevance to the OP at all), misinterpret them (jump to a conclusion) and try to make an issue of them, instead of contributing to the OP.

 

I hope that answers the first OP question ?

[JaxRolo]

Normally less experienced umpires will bait coaches. Sometimes an experienced umpire wi bait a coach. Just because they had enough or due to fatigue after multiple games.

[BigUmpire]

Done it.

No regrets.

I will do it again.

 

There are times when 1 person makes it miserable for all in an activity that is supposed to be FUN!

Then It’s time to GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[ricka56]

The question is what do you want to accomplish by baiting him. If you want to get rid of him (and you have your reasons), what happens if he doesn't say the magic words after the bait is set, and he lingers to be a PITA the rest of the game. What if your baiting causes a reversal of your EJ. Then you have empowered PITA HC even further in the future. It may satisy in the short run, but it's often counter-productive.

[Pete Peterson Sr]

To piggy back off UMP45 with the OBR reference... Our chapter rules interpreter gave us a tip for the coaches that want you to go for help every time a batter flinches.  If as a plate umpire you want an honest opinion from your partner, come out hard (with your left hand) "BillKen, DID HE GO?"  If you know he didn't go and you just want to appease the head coach, wait a second or two, point less emphatically and ask in a conversational tone, "BillKen, did he go?"  If you pre-game this with your partner, he should know what you want from him and the coach will just think you asked for help.    

Or, you could simply ask, and see what your partner had. I have never understood the big deal with check-swing appeals. If it was that obvious to you that the batter did not offer, doesn't it stand to reason that it was that obvious to your partner, also ?

[renegadewolf]

I've baited before, I had a bench full of midget kids (16-18 year olds) getting very loud and chirpy about pretty much every call that didn't go exactly the way they thought it should.  I told the coach his bench needs to knock it off, to which he replied "what are you going to do about it" so I replied with a "I'll toss you out of the f**kin game is what I'll do about it"  bench pretty much exploded coach is coming out off the bench just screaming at me, so I toss him, at which point players start to come out off the bench, my partner and i offer warnings they need to get back on the bench.  Three players were tossed before it got so crazy my partner and I walked off the field for fear of being assaulted by players and or parents who were up against the fences screaming and yelling.  Ended up having a 45 minute conversation with my UIC the next day about the importance of not baiting.

 

I avoid it at all costs these days, that situation left a really bad taste in my mouth

[grayhawk]

I've never baited a coach - it's just not in my personality when I'm in "business" mode.  Besides, it's way more satisfying to me to give them short, direct answers and let them frustrate themselves.

 

I have also never refused to go to my partner when appealed on a half swing.  What possible downside could there be?  We get a strike instead of a ball?

[noumpere]

1) I've baited a player.  Worked fine.

 

2) I've tried to bait a coach.  He got the hint, so it also worked fine.  I passed on baiting a coach this past weekend.

 

3) Go if asked (and they are not asking on every pitch, and don't use any secret signals).

[UMP45]

 

If you were playing OBR rules you HAVE to check if he asks. Just because your partner is in C is irrelevant. 

 

I can't see where the OP said that his partner's position was relevant. What is irrelevant are posters who pick the tiniest of issues (usually with no relevance to the OP at all), misinterpret them (jump to a conclusion) and try to make an issue of them, instead of contributing to the OP.

 

I hope that answers the first OP question ?

 

I'm sorry ricka. I thought I was helping. Billken brought up his partner was in C. It's not to much of a stretch that this had a bearing on his decision not to check. I coild have just said he started the s$%t storm by not checking with his partner. Wasn't trying to make an issue of it. I didn't know you were the Kumbaya police!

[Jocko]

Don't know if this is baiting or not.....

HC is questioning calls every inning. Offense...defense...everything but strike zone. But his displeasure with my zone was evident too. I stepped out after a foul to brush the plate. "THAT'S RIGHT. CLEAN IT OFF. MAYBE YOU'LL FINALLY SEE IT." I stood up (without brushing the plate) and gave him the evil eye. Acknowledged. Putting my brush back in my pocket, I stepped back into position. HC tells his F2 to brush the plate off. "Matt, don't you dare touch my plate." "No sir. I wasn't going to."

HC is out of the dugout calling time. The ball was foul and I had yet to put it back in. He calls F2 to him and I overhear the instruction again to clean off the plate. "Can't, Coach. Fish told me not to." HC comes to me (opposite dugout foul line) "what's your problem? Why wont you just clean the damn plate? Here....gimme your brush, I'll do It. (Holds hand out)." I just stood there, hands on hips looking at him. "Well, are ya gonna clean it or am I?" "Coach (intentionally not using his name) I will clean the plate when I deem it necessary. If you touch that plate, you won't be around to see the next pitch. Goodbye." He kept on talking. I kept standing in silence. Maybe a full minute. He finally took a breath. "You through?" I asked. "No I'm not through." "Yeah you are" *BOOM*

[BRUMP]

Don't know if this is baiting or not.....

HC is questioning calls every inning. Offense...defense...everything but strike zone. But his displeasure with my zone was evident too. I stepped out after a foul to brush the plate. "THAT'S RIGHT. CLEAN IT OFF. MAYBE YOU'LL FINALLY SEE IT." I stood up (without brushing the plate) and gave him the evil eye. Acknowledged. Putting my brush back in my pocket, I stepped back into position. HC tells his F2 to brush the plate off. "Matt, don't you dare touch my plate." "No sir. I wasn't going to."

HC is out of the dugout calling time. The ball was foul and I had yet to put it back in. He calls F2 to him and I overhear the instruction again to clean off the plate. "Can't, Coach. Fish told me not to." HC comes to me (opposite dugout foul line) "what's your problem? Why wont you just clean the damn plate? Here....gimme your brush, I'll do It. (Holds hand out)." I just stood there, hands on hips looking at him. "Well, are ya gonna clean it or am I?" "Coach (intentionally not using his name) I will clean the plate when I deem it necessary. If you touch that plate, you won't be around to see the next pitch. Goodbye." He kept on talking. I kept standing in silence. Maybe a full minute. He finally took a breath. "You through?" I asked. "No I'm not through." "Yeah you are" *BOOM*

 

I don't think you baited him. I would've not said anything when he wanted F2 to clean the plate and then run the HC for having F2 show me up.

[Pete Peterson Sr]

 

If you were playing OBR rules you HAVE to check if he asks. Just because your partner is in C is irrelevant. 

 

I can't see where the OP said that his partner's position was relevant. What is irrelevant are posters who pick the tiniest of issues (usually with no relevance to the OP at all), misinterpret them (jump to a conclusion) and try to make an issue of them, instead of contributing to the OP.

 

I hope that answers the first OP question ?

 

I'm going to disagree with you for this reason: There are a number of umpires (and the majority of coaches) who insist that there is no way you can give an accurate answer to a check-swing from the "C" position. I cannot speak for UMP45, but perhaps that is why he worded his reply as he did, and if so, I don't see that as "making an issue" or picking "the tiniest of nits". JMHO

[BillKen]

I didn't check him because I didn't need to.  I wouldn't check him at C unless I knew I was the only one in the stadium who didn't know if the batter went or not.  It can happen on a high inside pitch or a catcher popping up on a steal attempt.  I'm still of the old school belief that most of the time it puts him in a bad spot to ask him.  If he agrees with me, he is just kissing my butt (to the coach), and if he disagrees, he puts himself at risk with the other coach..  This is the kind of coach that would have taken issue with an ump checking with his partner in C (if it had not gone his way) because he knows enough about umpiring to be dangerous.  I think he was in a bad mood and he was trying to get his kids into the game emotionally. 

 

To clarify, this was NCAA rules collegiate wooden bat summer ball.

[Kevin_K]

I have baited coaches because they have accumulated more than enough of my attention and the terms of our "discussions" needed to be righted.

 

Over the course of time there have been a handful of needy rats (yes.... rats) who seem to think they have a God given right to act like a jackass and their antics have grown tiresome. I had one this weekend who will likely not survive our next encounter if he acts in a similar fashion - every time he didn't like a pitch call he asked his catcher whther or not the pitch was the way I saw it.... what a d-bag, whiny, see you next Tuesday

 

If an umpire knows how to umpire, like many on this board seem to, there are going to be situations like the OP that will develop and need to be handled in a way that maintains the personal dignity of the umpire while sending a message that rats cannot treat us like doormats.

 

@BillKen.... rest well. As many say, sometimes you just have to umpire

 

Not all of them are rats, but those who are need to understand that they cannot and should not act in a manner that runs counter to the good sportsmanship part of our plate conferences.

[UMP45]

I didn't check him because I didn't need to.  I wouldn't check him at C unless I knew I was the only one in the stadium who didn't know if the batter went or not.  It can happen on a high inside pitch or a catcher popping up on a steal attempt.  I'm still of the old school belief that most of the time it puts him in a bad spot to ask him.  If he agrees with me, he is just kissing my butt (to the coach), and if he disagrees, he puts himself at risk with the other coach..  This is the kind of coach that would have taken issue with an ump checking with his partner in C (if it had not gone his way) because he knows enough about umpiring to be dangerous.  I think he was in a bad mood and he was trying to get his kids into the game emotionally. 

 

To clarify, this was NCAA rules collegiate wooden bat summer ball.

If I'm not mistaken with a coach asking for a check you have to ask same as OBR. Haven't worked college since 2001 so don't know for sure. By not checking you could be missing out on some strikes.

[MidAmUmp]

If you were playing OBR rules you HAVE to check if he asks. Just because your partner is in C is irrelevant.

I can't see where the OP said that his partner's position was relevant. What is irrelevant are posters who pick the tiniest of issues (usually with no relevance to the OP at all), misinterpret them (jump to a conclusion) and try to make an issue of them, instead of contributing to the OP.

I hope that answers the first OP question ? So let me get this correct for future reference...a guy comes on here and says he had a batter swing at a pitch, ball hits his hand, rolls into fair territory, umpire signals fair, catcher overthrows 1st and batter ends up at 2nd base. Head coach argues the ball is dead. Umpire says hands are part of the bat. Coach says you need to learn the rules. Umpire baits him and ejects him. You are saying we should not correct the umpire on his ruling that lead to the situation that lead to the baiting that lead to the ejection? We should not solve the actual root of the problem, we should just post comments about the main subject of each post?

While I agree the umpire positioning/check swing appeal wasn't the subject of the original post, I would render a guess if our friend would have simply honored the coach's request and checked with his partner, regardless of where he was positioned, the rest of the situation may not have occurred.

For what it's worth, last week I honored a coach's request for a check swing appeal on a LHB with no runners on base. Maybe I was wrong?

[Jimurray]

I didn't check him because I didn't need to. I wouldn't check him at C unless I knew I was the only one in the stadium who didn't know if the batter went or not. It can happen on a high inside pitch or a catcher popping up on a steal attempt. I'm still of the old school belief that most of the time it puts him in a bad spot to ask him. If he agrees with me, he is just kissing my butt (to the coach), and if he disagrees, he puts himself at risk with the other coach.. This is the kind of coach that would have taken issue with an ump checking with his partner in C (if it had not gone his way) because he knows enough about umpiring to be dangerous. I think he was in a bad mood and he was trying to get his kids into the game emotionally.

To clarify, this was NCAA rules collegiate wooden bat summer ball.

If it was NCAA you have to check. If it was OBR at any level you have to check. He's not in a bad spot. The coach is. F em.

[KenBAZ]

BillKen:

I'm sure it took a lot to lay this out to all of us. You must have felt bad about the whole episode. In addition to you learning from it perhaps some of the rest of us can learn and avoid being put in your position in the future. Thank you for being willing to share.

[BillKen]

 

I didn't check him because I didn't need to. I wouldn't check him at C unless I knew I was the only one in the stadium who didn't know if the batter went or not. It can happen on a high inside pitch or a catcher popping up on a steal attempt. I'm still of the old school belief that most of the time it puts him in a bad spot to ask him. If he agrees with me, he is just kissing my butt (to the coach), and if he disagrees, he puts himself at risk with the other coach.. This is the kind of coach that would have taken issue with an ump checking with his partner in C (if it had not gone his way) because he knows enough about umpiring to be dangerous. I think he was in a bad mood and he was trying to get his kids into the game emotionally.

To clarify, this was NCAA rules collegiate wooden bat summer ball.

If it was NCAA you have to check. If it was OBR at any level you have to check. He's not in a bad spot. The coach is. F em.

 

I work mostly Fed...I only have a couple of toes dipped into the NCAA thing, so this is good to know.

 

[ricka56]

So let me get this correct for future reference...a guy comes on here and says he had a batter swing at a pitch, ball hits his hand, rolls into fair territory, umpire signals fair, catcher overthrows 1st and batter ends up at 2nd base. Head coach argues the ball is dead. Umpire says hands are part of the bat. Coach says you need to learn the rules. Umpire baits him and ejects him. You are saying we should not correct the umpire on his ruling that lead to the situation that lead to the baiting that lead to the ejection? We should not solve the actual root of the problem, we should just post comments about the main subject of each post?

 

Sure I can help you out with that. If a poster did not give any indication that anything was wrong and one needed to jump to a conclusion to think that something was wrong, then the answer is simply yes, one should stick to the original subject.

 

Its good to hear that you asked for a half-swing appeal on that LHB with no one on. My question is, have you ever refused a request for a half-swing appeal ? Do you always grant the request, no matter how ridiculous it is. Maybe it was only a sixteenth-swing, or maybe B was avoiding a HBP and never initiated a swing, or some other unusual happening that wasn't worthy of an appeal or maybe PITA HC was just trying to undermind your authority and show you who's running the show. Have you ever refused a request?  If so, then you probably had a good reason for refusing. Then why would you jump to the conclusion that the OP didn't have a good reason.

 

Even if one umpires perfectly, there are going to be circunstances beyond our control, and an infinite number of ways that a HC could get under our skin. The root of the problem is an umpire's temptation to deviate from professionalism, not the infinite number of ways that he got to that point.

[umpstu]

To piggy back off UMP45 with the OBR reference... Our chapter rules interpreter gave us a tip for the coaches that want you to go for help every time a batter flinches.  If as a plate umpire you want an honest opinion from your partner, come out hard (with your left hand) "BillKen, DID HE GO?"  If you know he didn't go and you just want to appease the head coach, wait a second or two, point less emphatically and ask in a conversational tone, "BillKen, did he go?"  If you pre-game this with your partner, he should know what you want from him and the coach will just think you asked for help.

Don't agree. Your partner should give you what he has, period.