Baiting A Coach

[umpstu]

I've never baited a coach - it's just not in my personality when I'm in "business" mode.  Besides, it's way more satisfying to me to give them short, direct answers and let them frustrate themselves.

 

I have also never refused to go to my partner when appealed on a half swing.  What possible downside could there be?  We get a strike instead of a ball?

Never baited a coach either. Have baited a fishing hook, though.

Can't ever remember not asking for help on a check swing if a coach asks. What's the harm in asking? They can't argue it because that would be arguing balls and strikes.

[noumpere]

 

Then why would you jump to the conclusion that the OP didn't have a good reason.

 

 

Because the OP didn't state any of the reasons you gave and certainly implied that the entire reason he didn't go was because BU was in C.  And, I think at least some of the responders indicated that *IF* that was the only reason, he should have gone.

[MPLSMatt]

To the question at hand - I've inadvertently baited several times (including this past weekend) with a "what was that, coach?" after I hear some bs comment (this weekend's was "that's a terrible call, blue" I was in the working area and he was 1BC/HC).  It's a bad idea and I never mean to do it...  I've been lucky and the coaches have always said "nothing" or backed down, but one day one of them is going to repeat what they said for the whole field to hear and I'll have to decide whether to dump them or not and if so, I'll have baited them into it.  

 

I know it's not a good practice, but about once a year it slips out - generally at the end of a long day (tournaments) and when I know that the coach's gripe is utterly ridiculous. 

[zm1283]

Don't know if this is baiting or not.....

HC is questioning calls every inning. Offense...defense...everything but strike zone. But his displeasure with my zone was evident too. I stepped out after a foul to brush the plate. "THAT'S RIGHT. CLEAN IT OFF. MAYBE YOU'LL FINALLY SEE IT.

 

Goodbye....end of conversation.

 

I didn't check him because I didn't need to.  I wouldn't check him at C unless I knew I was the only one in the stadium who didn't know if the batter went or not.  It can happen on a high inside pitch or a catcher popping up on a steal attempt.  I'm still of the old school belief that most of the time it puts him in a bad spot to ask him.  If he agrees with me, he is just kissing my butt (to the coach), and if he disagrees, he puts himself at risk with the other coach..  This is the kind of coach that would have taken issue with an ump checking with his partner in C (if it had not gone his way) because he knows enough about umpiring to be dangerous.  I think he was in a bad mood and he was trying to get his kids into the game emotionally. 

 

To clarify, this was NCAA rules collegiate wooden bat summer ball.

 

Like others have said, under NCAA rules you have to ask if they request it, and your partner's location doesn't matter. It may be a ridiculous request and he may be a pain in the a$$. If that's the case, he will hang himself in due time and you can take care of it when he does.

 

My only other thought is to stop worrying so much about what each coach is going to think when you do or don't do something. Just umpire.

[Rich Ives]

 

 Have you ever refused a request?  If so, then you probably had a good reason for refusing..

 

 

Know where you are before you refuse.

 

OBR 9.02(c ) Comment:  Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing.

 

NCAA 3-6-f:   When asked by a coach or player, the plate umpire must seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire regarding the “half swing.â€

 

FED 10-1-4-a   The umpire-in-chief sometimes asks for aid from the base umpire when there is a question as to whether a batter’s “half swing†is such as to be called a strike.

[Jocko]

Something noone else has even mentioned..... He called his partner "Blue"

We know each other's names. Lets use em.

[bam]

 

 

 Have you ever refused a request?  If so, then you probably had a good reason for refusing..

 

 

Know where you are before you refuse.

 

OBR 9.02(c ) Comment:  Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing.

 

NCAA 3-6-f:   When asked by a coach or player, the plate umpire must seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire regarding the “half swing.â€

 

FED 10-1-4-a   The umpire-in-chief sometimes asks for aid from the base umpire when there is a question as to whether a batter’s “half swing†is such as to be called a strike.

 

 

So if some jackwagon rat asks for an appeal after every pitch, you MUST grant it?  

[zm1283]

 

 

 

 Have you ever refused a request?  If so, then you probably had a good reason for refusing..

 

 

Know where you are before you refuse.

 

OBR 9.02(c ) Comment:  Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing.

 

NCAA 3-6-f:   When asked by a coach or player, the plate umpire must seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire regarding the “half swing.â€

 

FED 10-1-4-a   The umpire-in-chief sometimes asks for aid from the base umpire when there is a question as to whether a batter’s “half swing†is such as to be called a strike.

 

 

So if some jackwagon rat asks for an appeal after every pitch, you MUST grant it?  

 

 

I would.....

 

For about four pitches, then the problem would take care of itself.

[Rich Ives]

 

 

 

 Have you ever refused a request?  If so, then you probably had a good reason for refusing..

 

 

Know where you are before you refuse.

 

OBR 9.02(c ) Comment:  Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing.

 

NCAA 3-6-f:   When asked by a coach or player, the plate umpire must seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire regarding the “half swing.â€

 

FED 10-1-4-a   The umpire-in-chief sometimes asks for aid from the base umpire when there is a question as to whether a batter’s “half swing†is such as to be called a strike.

 

 

So if some jackwagon rat asks for an appeal after every pitch, you MUST grant it?  

 

 

What part of "must" is so hard to understand?

 

If it's a half-swing appeal you must ask. It's in the book. I didn't make it up.

[Rich Ives]

 

 

 

 

 Have you ever refused a request?  If so, then you probably had a good reason for refusing..

 

 

Know where you are before you refuse.

 

OBR 9.02(c ) Comment:  Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing.

 

NCAA 3-6-f:   When asked by a coach or player, the plate umpire must seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire regarding the “half swing.â€

 

FED 10-1-4-a   The umpire-in-chief sometimes asks for aid from the base umpire when there is a question as to whether a batter’s “half swing†is such as to be called a strike.

 

 

So if some jackwagon rat asks for an appeal after every pitch, you MUST grant it?  

 

 

I would.....

 

For about four pitches, then the problem would take care of itself.

 

 

Are you implying you'd toss a coach or player for making a legal appeal?

[Thunderheads]

 

 

 

 

 

 Have you ever refused a request?  If so, then you probably had a good reason for refusing..

 

 

Know where you are before you refuse.

 

OBR 9.02(c ) Comment:  Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing.

 

NCAA 3-6-f:   When asked by a coach or player, the plate umpire must seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire regarding the “half swing.”

 

FED 10-1-4-a   The umpire-in-chief sometimes asks for aid from the base umpire when there is a question as to whether a batter’s “half swing” is such as to be called a strike.

 

 

So if some jackwagon rat asks for an appeal after every pitch, you MUST grant it?  

 

 

I would.....

 

For about four pitches, then the problem would take care of itself.

 

 

Are you implying you'd toss a coach or player for making a legal appeal?

 

where are you getting that Rich?????

[grayhawk]

 

 

 

 Have you ever refused a request?  If so, then you probably had a good reason for refusing..

 

 

Know where you are before you refuse.

 

OBR 9.02(c ) Comment:  Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing.

 

NCAA 3-6-f:   When asked by a coach or player, the plate umpire must seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire regarding the “half swing.â€

 

FED 10-1-4-a   The umpire-in-chief sometimes asks for aid from the base umpire when there is a question as to whether a batter’s “half swing†is such as to be called a strike.

 

 

So if some jackwagon rat asks for an appeal after every pitch, you MUST grant it?  

 

 

Has that ever happened?  Like, EVER?

[Specks]

 

 

 

 

 

 Have you ever refused a request?  If so, then you probably had a good reason for refusing..

 

 

Know where you are before you refuse.

 

OBR 9.02(c ) Comment:  Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing.

 

NCAA 3-6-f:   When asked by a coach or player, the plate umpire must seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire regarding the “half swing.â€

 

FED 10-1-4-a   The umpire-in-chief sometimes asks for aid from the base umpire when there is a question as to whether a batter’s “half swing†is such as to be called a strike.

 

 

So if some jackwagon rat asks for an appeal after every pitch, you MUST grant it?  

 

 

I would.....

 

For about four pitches, then the problem would take care of itself.

 

 

Are you implying you'd toss a coach or player for making a legal appeal?

 

HELL YES!!!!!!!!!!

If he was asking too much and delaying the game.

[Rich Ives]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Have you ever refused a request?  If so, then you probably had a good reason for refusing..

 

 

Know where you are before you refuse.

 

OBR 9.02(c ) Comment:  Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing.

 

NCAA 3-6-f:   When asked by a coach or player, the plate umpire must seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire regarding the “half swing.â€

 

FED 10-1-4-a   The umpire-in-chief sometimes asks for aid from the base umpire when there is a question as to whether a batter’s “half swing†is such as to be called a strike.

 

 

So if some jackwagon rat asks for an appeal after every pitch, you MUST grant it?  

 

 

I would.....

 

For about four pitches, then the problem would take care of itself.

 

 

Are you implying you'd toss a coach or player for making a legal appeal?

 

where are you getting that Rich?????

 

 

From the bolded line just above

[Rich Ives]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Have you ever refused a request?  If so, then you probably had a good reason for refusing..

 

 

Know where you are before you refuse.

 

OBR 9.02(c ) Comment:  Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing.

 

NCAA 3-6-f:   When asked by a coach or player, the plate umpire must seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire regarding the “half swing.â€

 

FED 10-1-4-a   The umpire-in-chief sometimes asks for aid from the base umpire when there is a question as to whether a batter’s “half swing†is such as to be called a strike.

 

 

So if some jackwagon rat asks for an appeal after every pitch, you MUST grant it?  

 

 

I would.....

 

For about four pitches, then the problem would take care of itself.

 

 

Are you implying you'd toss a coach or player for making a legal appeal?

 

HELL YES!!!!!!!!!!

If he was asking too much and delaying the game.

 

 

Please post your note to thje protest committee in response to this protest:  "I made a legal appeal of a half-swing per 9.02(c ) Comment and instead of asking the field umpire to rule the plate umpire responded by ejecting me from the game, a misinterpretation of 9.02(c ) Comment."

[Replacematt]

Please post your note to thje protest committee in response to this protest:  "I made a legal appeal of a half-swing per 9.02(c ) Comment and instead of asking the field umpire to rule the plate umpire responded by ejecting me from the game, a misinterpretation of 9.02(c ) Comment."

Just for the record, I'd do the appeal, then toss. This would be my answer:

"In my judgment, the request for an appeal was not intended to result in a change from ball to strike, but to argue balls and strikes. After fulfilling my obligation and granting the appeal request per 9.02c, I ejected (name) for arguing balls and strikes, pursuant to 9.02a."

[Umpire in Chief]

Yes, I've baited and EJ'd and baited caught and released. It all depends on the situation and weather they are "getting it."

The classic is arguing balls and strikes a coach who is being a PITA on the bench arguing balls and strikes, but hasn't been loud enough to where you would look like the bad guy. "Coach, would you like to come out here and discuss balls and strikes with me?" Not too loud so you appear to be instigating. 

Some coaches will get it and shut up. For the ones who don't you can feel free to eject. Your ejection report would be short sweet and too the point. "After making complaints from the bench about balls and strikes and being warned, in the 5th inning Coach XXXX left the bench to argue balls and strikes."

Now to the check swing appeals. I have no problem appealing to my partner on request. My thought is to get it out of the way as soon as possible and back with the game. Now if the check swings become excessive then I'd have a conversation with the coach telling him I'm happy to appeal the swings but we can't be appealing them all. It is causing an unnecessary delay in the game. MLB 4.15 (b) & NCAA 5.12 (b) address unnecessary delays. By telling him you feel he is causing unnecessary delays to the game with this you are setting the ground work for going that route. Now you have given him a request to refrain from doing something which interferes with the administration of the game.  

 

But you also have to think is that the way you want to go. Let the situation dictate how you go. Use common sense and be fair. 

[MPLSMatt]

Yes, I've baited and EJ'd and baited caught and released. It all depends on the situation and weather they are "getting it."

The classic is arguing balls and strikes a coach who is being a PITA on the bench arguing balls and strikes, but hasn't been loud enough to where you would look like the bad guy. "Coach, would you like to come out here and discuss balls and strikes with me?" Not too loud so you appear to be instigating. 

Some coaches will get it and shut up. For the ones who don't you can feel free to eject. Your ejection report would be short sweet and too the point. "After making complaints from the bench about balls and strikes and being warned, in the 5th inning Coach XXXX left the bench to argue balls and strikes."

Now to the check swing appeals. I have no problem appealing to my partner on request. My thought is to get it out of the way as soon as possible and back with the game. Now if the check swings become excessive then I'd have a conversation with the coach telling him I'm happy to appeal the swings but we can't be appealing them all. It is causing an unnecessary delay in the game. MLB 4.15 (b) & NCAA 5.12 (b) address unnecessary delays. By telling him you feel he is causing unnecessary delays to the game with this you are setting the ground work for going that route. Now you have given him a request to refrain from doing something which interferes with the administration of the game.  

 

But you also have to think is that the way you want to go. Let the situation dictate how you go. Use common sense and be fair. 

 

UIC, I don't think I've ever disagreed with you,  but this seems wrong.  You invite the coach out (whether genuine or not) and then dump him (at least partially) for coming out?  How is this more effective than "Thats enough!" or "Knock it off!"? 

 

I'm sure that the RAT deserves it but just seems like trouble waiting to happen if the coach goes to the league. 

[Specks]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Have you ever refused a request?  If so, then you probably had a good reason for refusing..

 

 

Know where you are before you refuse.

 

OBR 9.02(c ) Comment:  Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing.

 

NCAA 3-6-f:   When asked by a coach or player, the plate umpire must seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire regarding the “half swing.â€

 

FED 10-1-4-a   The umpire-in-chief sometimes asks for aid from the base umpire when there is a question as to whether a batter’s “half swing†is such as to be called a strike.

 

 

So if some jackwagon rat asks for an appeal after every pitch, you MUST grant it?  

 

 

I would.....

 

For about four pitches, then the problem would take care of itself.

 

 

Are you implying you'd toss a coach or player for making a legal appeal?

 

HELL YES!!!!!!!!!!

If he was asking too much and delaying the game.

 

 

Please post your note to thje protest committee in response to this protest:  "I made a legal appeal of a half-swing per 9.02(c ) Comment and instead of asking the field umpire to rule the plate umpire responded by ejecting me from the game, a misinterpretation of 9.02(c ) Comment."

 

Rich was asking for excessive check swing appeals, not in an effort to detrmine the swing but to make a point, argue balls and strikes or delay the game. I ejected Rich from the contest.

[MidAmUmp]

 

 

 

 Have you ever refused a request?  If so, then you probably had a good reason for refusing..

 

 

Know where you are before you refuse.

 

OBR 9.02(c ) Comment:  Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing.

 

NCAA 3-6-f:   When asked by a coach or player, the plate umpire must seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire regarding the “half swing.â€

 

FED 10-1-4-a   The umpire-in-chief sometimes asks for aid from the base umpire when there is a question as to whether a batter’s “half swing†is such as to be called a strike.

 

 

So if some jackwagon rat asks for an appeal after every pitch, you MUST grant it?  

 

At some point you have to draw the line and say, "We're not asking on every pitch."  because at that point the guy is making a mockery of the game.  However, if a batter checked his swing on every pitch, after about the 2nd one, I'd start getting him on the swing and that would resolve the appeal process.

 

Honor legitimate appeal requests regardless of where your partner is positioned.

[Rich Ives]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Have you ever refused a request?  If so, then you probably had a good reason for refusing..

 

 

Know where you are before you refuse.

 

OBR 9.02(c ) Comment:  Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing.

 

NCAA 3-6-f:   When asked by a coach or player, the plate umpire must seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire regarding the “half swing.â€

 

FED 10-1-4-a   The umpire-in-chief sometimes asks for aid from the base umpire when there is a question as to whether a batter’s “half swing†is such as to be called a strike.

 

 

So if some jackwagon rat asks for an appeal after every pitch, you MUST grant it?  

 

 

I would.....

 

For about four pitches, then the problem would take care of itself.

 

 

Are you implying you'd toss a coach or player for making a legal appeal?

 

HELL YES!!!!!!!!!!

If he was asking too much and delaying the game.

 

 

Please post your note to thje protest committee in response to this protest:  "I made a legal appeal of a half-swing per 9.02(c ) Comment and instead of asking the field umpire to rule the plate umpire responded by ejecting me from the game, a misinterpretation of 9.02(c ) Comment."

 

Rich was asking for excessive check swing appeals, not in an effort to determine the swing but to make a point, argue balls and strikes or delay the game. I ejected Rich from the contest.

 

 

Protest committee ruling:  There is no such thing as excessive check swing appeals. The team is entitled to ask on each one. By rule. Protest valid.

[Rich Ives]

As for baiting.  I'm past the need-a-beer stage of life.  Try baiting me with a hot fudge sundae. 

[Rich Ives]

 

Please post your note to thje protest committee in response to this protest:  "I made a legal appeal of a half-swing per 9.02(c ) Comment and instead of asking the field umpire to rule the plate umpire responded by ejecting me from the game, a misinterpretation of 9.02(c ) Comment."

Just for the record, I'd do the appeal, then toss. This would be my answer:

"In my judgment, the request for an appeal was not intended to result in a change from ball to strike, but to argue balls and strikes. After fulfilling my obligation and granting the appeal request per 9.02c, I ejected (name) for arguing balls and strikes, pursuant to 9.02a."

 

 

That's absurd. Making a legal appeal is an ejectable offense? Have any of you ever counted how many half-swing appeals there are in a pro game? Hint: they are NOT rare.

[MidAmUmp]

 

So let me get this correct for future reference...a guy comes on here and says he had a batter swing at a pitch, ball hits his hand, rolls into fair territory, umpire signals fair, catcher overthrows 1st and batter ends up at 2nd base. Head coach argues the ball is dead. Umpire says hands are part of the bat. Coach says you need to learn the rules. Umpire baits him and ejects him. You are saying we should not correct the umpire on his ruling that lead to the situation that lead to the baiting that lead to the ejection? We should not solve the actual root of the problem, we should just post comments about the main subject of each post?

 

Sure I can help you out with that. If a poster did not give any indication that anything was wrong and one needed to jump to a conclusion to think that something was wrong, then the answer is simply yes, one should stick to the original subject.

 

Its good to hear that you asked for a half-swing appeal on that LHB with no one on. My question is, have you ever refused a request for a half-swing appeal ? Do you always grant the request, no matter how ridiculous it is. Maybe it was only a sixteenth-swing, or maybe B was avoiding a HBP and never initiated a swing, or some other unusual happening that wasn't worthy of an appeal or maybe PITA HC was just trying to undermind your authority and show you who's running the show. Have you ever refused a request?  If so, then you probably had a good reason for refusing. Then why would you jump to the conclusion that the OP didn't have a good reason.

 

Even if one umpires perfectly, there are going to be circunstances beyond our control, and an infinite number of ways that a HC could get under our skin. The root of the problem is an umpire's temptation to deviate from professionalism, not the infinite number of ways that he got to that point.

 

Have I ever refused a request of an appeal of a check swing?  Probably early in my career before I knew better.  But now that I do know better and am in some sort of position to help others better themselves, I will chime in and offer my advice to correct the real problem which lead to the other problems so hopefully those problems will not occur again.  

 

Sure there are times where there are circumstances beyond our control, but this particular circumstance (refusing a valid appeal leading to a pissed off coach) isn't one of them.  To say in this particular circumstance that, "the root of the problem is an umpire's temptation to deviate from professionalism" seems to me to be very similar to the ban guns argument. Why not address the "infinite number of ways that he got to that point"?  That would be solving the real problem, wouldn't it???

 

Basically what I'm saying is most coaches (not all) are somewhat reasonable people.  If we do our jobs to the best of our ability - enforcing rules with common sense and fair play and being somewhat reasonable back to them - there usually aren't a lot of problems.  When one chooses to be a prick to the other without justification, that's when there are problems that lead to things like coaches with smartass comments and umpires trying to bait coaches.

 

Have I baited a coach?  Sure.  Am I proud of it?  At the time, yes.  Looking back on it, no.  Hell, I baited a pitcher once.  He wanted a new ball, I gave him one, he immediately threw it back to me (lobbed it about 40 feet and it rolled the rest of the way and past me).  I took out a new ball, lobbed it about 40 feet towards him.  He grabbed the ball and fired it in my direction and I ran him.  Felt pretty good at the time.  Feels pretty dumb now.

[Replacematt]

Please post your note to thje protest committee in response to this protest:  "I made a legal appeal of a half-swing per 9.02(c ) Comment and instead of asking the field umpire to rule the plate umpire responded by ejecting me from the game, a misinterpretation of 9.02(c ) Comment."

Just for the record, I'd do the appeal, then toss. This would be my answer:

"In my judgment, the request for an appeal was not intended to result in a change from ball to strike, but to argue balls and strikes. After fulfilling my obligation and granting the appeal request per 9.02c, I ejected (name) for arguing balls and strikes, pursuant to 9.02a."

 

That's absurd. Making a legal appeal is an ejectable offense? Have any of you ever counted how many half-swing appeals there are in a pro game? Hint: they are NOT rare.

I didn't toss for making a legal appeal, now did I?