What should I have done differently?

Thunderheads · July 17, 2014

If a coach ask me at the plate meeting where my zone is my response is

You figure it out

My response to a coach who wants to talk about balls and strikes is and always has been

"Coach you know good and well we dont talk about balls and strikes"

ok ..... regardless of how you present those words ....... THAT'S GOT to come across redass :nod:

ricka56 · July 17, 2014

If a coach ask me at the plate meeting where my zone is my response is

You figure it out

ok ..... regardless of how you present those words ....... THAT'S GOT to come across redass

If I was his UIC, I'd come onto the field and correct this immediately. :stir

BRUMP · July 17, 2014

Ive been asked before the game where my zone is. I usually respond with a simple "nothing out of the ordinary." seems to work fine for me

James Walker · July 17, 2014

I wasn't trying to come across redass... I didn't say it like a redass... I wasn't defensive or aggressive when I replied. I didn't really even think about it til he started again later that game. Usually they ask, I reply and that's the end of it. I didn't even think of it as a warning. Just more of a "hey coach, some things just shouldn't be said out loud" kinda thing. TBH, him saying it didn't bother me. To an uneducated coach, it may seem like a good or honest question. I was just trying to shut it down before he unintentionally went to far or an opposing coach heard and wanted to join the conversation. When he said it, there was nothing in his tone to indicate that he was trying to get under my skin or show me up. We both left the conversation with no harm, no foul. Our small exchanges in the bottom of the 1st and 2nd were polite and somewhat joking. It wasn't until the visitors hung 8 on them that things started getting heated.

To me, there's no good way to answer that question. To ignore it would make you seem unapproachable. Sometime you're just danged if you do and danged if you don't...

James Walker · July 17, 2014

Ive been asked before the game where my zone is. I usually respond with a simple "nothing out of the ordinary." seems to work fine for me

That's the thing... It's anything but ordinary. It unique. Everyone's zone is a little different. 9 times out of 10 the differences would be so small that only a fellow umpire would see the difference. But there are exceptions. And that's not including missing one one way or the other.

grayhawk · July 17, 2014

To me, there's no good way to answer that question. To ignore it would make you seem unapproachable. Sometime you're just danged if you do and danged if you don't...

If he's just uneducated, then I would have no problem saying something like:

"Jim, I understand the reason you are asking, but I just want to let you know that it's not an appropriate question to ask. However, you can be sure that it's always my goal to be correct on every pitch, and to be as consistent as humanly possible."

If he's just being an ass, then a simple, "we don't discuss balls and strikes" is sufficient.

SteveJ · July 18, 2014

Beginning of the game, pitchers warming up. HTAC comes up and asks where my zone is. I tell him were not discussing balls and strikes tonight ( too defensive?). No malice in either of our tones. No one heard but him and I and maybe the catcher.

I had that asked at lower levels (10U-12U) a couple of times -- Years ago my response would have been "You have 9 innings (or how ever many) to figure it out"! But in today's "kinder/gentler world my response is (at the lower levels) "Big zone [insert coach's name], tell them to swing the bat".

Top of 3. I ball an outside pitch. I hear, guess you have to be from a certain place to get calls. I call time, remove my mask and warn. Didn't raise my voice and stayed calm.

"Time", mask off, look at the coach with my most intimidating glance and say "[coach's name], I've heard enough" -- that was the first and last warning that the coach will receive from me.

After the 3rd. I'm up the 3rd baseline. HTAC is walking back to 1st base dugout. I see him out of the corner of my eye. I take a step back trying to give him room. He walks by and brushes me with his arm. I ignore it, not knowing if it was accidental or what. ( should I have tossed here?)

If I am standing where I should be in-between innings and a coach that I have had issue with brushes me.....he's gone -- in the league I work for he's fined/suspended (if not kicked out of the league altogether).

Top 4. I ball a pitch outside. HTAC says " no way that missed!". I call time, remove my mask and say " that's enough, we are not discussing balls and strikes!" I stare into the dugout for a few seconds to make it clear he's about to get a one way ticket to the parking lot.

If the coach had not brushed me -- I am running him for this comment. I've already warned him, now he has forced me to eject him.

Next pitch, same location. Ball it again. HTAC, "That's two!". Boom! He gone. I walk up the third base line. Partners take out the trash.

Too many warnings!

Two batters later, R1. I think they tried to throw at me. Catcher bailed like it was a pitch out and I get hit in the shin with a lollipop curve. I just don't know. The pitching/catching wasnt great and this particular team called a lot of pitch outs. Even the coach acted like it was supposed to be a pitch out. But I wouldn't put it past them.

Got to be careful here -- don't read too much into the situation. You said that they had called a lot of pitch-outs and the pitching/catching wasn't great. What were the actions by the players/coaches prior to you being hit? And they hit you with a lollipop curve? Maybe if they wacked you with a fast-ball???

SteveJ · July 18, 2014

If a coach ask me at the plate meeting where my zone is my response is

You figure it out

ok ..... regardless of how you present those words ....... THAT'S GOT to come across redass

If I was his UIC, I'd come onto the field and correct this immediately.

If you were my UIC and you came out on my field to correct anything I said or did you'd better have your plate gear on.............

James Walker · July 18, 2014

If a coach ask me at the plate meeting where my zone is my response is
You figure it out

ok ..... regardless of how you present those words ....... THAT'S GOT to come across redass :nod:

If I was his UIC, I'd come onto the field and correct this immediately. :stir

If you were my UIC and you came out on my field to correct anything I said or did you'd better have your plate gear on.............

Calm down buddy, it's a little joke.

I've seen a lot of guys comment with too many warnings. I agree. I gave a lot more rope than I usually do. My ejection totals were high and I was thinking the problem was me. So I went into this with the mindset of ignore more and make sure to give a definite warning before tossing. Now I realize I work with a bunch of uneducated coaches. Or knucleheaded ones.

immaculate1976 · July 18, 2014

If a coach ask me at the plate meeting where my zone is my response is
You figure it out

ok ..... regardless of how you present those words ....... THAT'S GOT to come across redass
If I was his UIC, I'd come onto the field and correct this immediately. If you were my UIC and you came out on my field to correct anything I said or did you'd better have your plate gear on.............
Calm down buddy, it's a little joke.
I've seen a lot of guys comment with too many warnings. I agree. I gave a lot more rope than I usually do. My ejection totals were high and I was thinking the problem was me. So I went into this with the mindset of ignore more and make sure to give a definite warning before tossing. Now I realize I work with a bunch of uneducated coaches. Or knucleheaded ones.

James Walker I know what you mean. I had a big total of ejections last year and all off season I thought maybe I am letting coaches get to me and I need to calm down and give them a little more rope. That changed the first week this year when I realized giving the coaches more rope only made it worse instead of making it better.

BRUMP · July 18, 2014

If a coach ask me at the plate meeting where my zone is my response is
You figure it out

ok ..... regardless of how you present those words ....... THAT'S GOT to come across redass
If I was his UIC, I'd come onto the field and correct this immediately. If you were my UIC and you came out on my field to correct anything I said or did you'd better have your plate gear on.............
Calm down buddy, it's a little joke.
I've seen a lot of guys comment with too many warnings. I agree. I gave a lot more rope than I usually do. My ejection totals were high and I was thinking the problem was me. So I went into this with the mindset of ignore more and make sure to give a definite warning before tossing. Now I realize I work with a bunch of uneducated coaches. Or knucleheaded ones.

James Walker I know what you mean. I had a big total of ejections last year and all off season I thought maybe I am letting coaches get to me and I need to calm down and give them a little more rope. That changed the first week this year when I realized giving the coaches more rope only made it worse instead of making it better.

I had 4 in a month this yr....but I've also had a stretch where I've had nothing for 2yrs.......it doesn't really matter when they have to go they have to go

SteveJ · July 19, 2014

I think the nature of youth baseball has changed during my career. Less respect for umpires by players/coaches/fans -- don't have an answer for it!

HokieUmp · August 2, 2014

It wasn't until the visitors hung 8 on them that things started getting heated.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

This. So very much this. Coaches and players are your friends, right up until the moment they aren't. And that moment tends to be around the time things start going pear-shaped for them during the game.

It's why I kind of liked my last association - and look forward to going back. Given where their games are, and my workplace, I live at least 35 miles from the nearest ballfield I work. I know no one, and prefer to keep it that way. (Eventually, at varsity games, you see teams enough times to get vaguely familiar, but that's about it.) New bumper sticker for BigUmp, then:

"Show up, crush some dreams, drive home."

And I don't know if it's red-assed or not, but the last time I remember being asked about where my zone is at a plate meeting, I replied "We'll all find out in about five minutes, won't we?" Again, might not be the best answer in the world, but since it's certainly not one the coach expects to hear, it tends to end that line of questioning quick smart. Which is what we want, after all.

FleasOf1000Camels · August 7, 2014

I always insist on having the head coach at plate conference, and always use these lines:

"Just a reminder, gentlemen, I consider YOU responsible for the conduct and sportsmanlike behavior of your players and coaches."

"If you feel the need to discuss some point of rule, I want you to know that I'm approachable on these specific terms: once play is over, ask for time, wait for time to be granted and approach me like a gentleman. This is a privilege granted exclusively to you as the HC. Remember, we're NOT going to talk about judgment calls; safe/out, fair/foul, ball/strike."

I NEVER allow myself to get in an argument with an AC. When an AC gets too chirpy, I go to the HC. "Remember what I said at pre-game about YOU being responsible for your coaches' behavior? If YOU want HIM to stay in this game, YOU are going to have to get him under control."

148 games so far this year. ZERO coach ejections, and NEVER once had a partner tell me "you should have dumped him." DID have a partner tell me once "I think I would have dumped him, but I liked your way better."

Replacematt · August 7, 2014

I always insist on having the head coach at plate conference, and always use these lines:
"Just a reminder, gentlemen, I consider YOU responsible for the conduct and sportsmanlike behavior of your players and coaches."
"If you feel the need to discuss some point of rule, I want you to know that I'm approachable on these specific terms: once play is over, ask for time, wait for time to be granted and approach me like a gentleman. This is a privilege granted exclusively to you as the HC. Remember, we're NOT going to talk about judgment calls; safe/out, fair/foul, ball/strike."

WTAF? I'll be out in short right by the time you finish that short story. If I were a coach, I would end your non-ejection streak right there. Don't tell me what to do at the plate conference.

I NEVER allow myself to get in an argument with an AC. When an AC gets too chirpy, I go to the HC. "Remember what I said at pre-game about YOU being responsible for your coaches' behavior? If YOU want HIM to stay in this game, YOU are going to have to get him under control."

If the boss needs reminding, then you're going to have issues. If the boss is intentionally letting his assistants do this, then you're going to have issues.

148 games so far this year. ZERO coach ejections, and NEVER once had a partner tell me "you should have dumped him." DID have a partner tell me once "I think I would have dumped him, but I liked your way better."

Something tells me you should have dumped him.

MadMax · August 7, 2014

I'm in @FleasOf1000Camels 's camp, but I don't use as many words. My plate meeting is succinct and concise (well practiced!) and is ended with "Gentlemen, we're going to have a competitive, clean ballgame. Mark (partner) and I are going to make sure the calls are right, but if a discussion is warranted, we are open to discussion... but it's by you, Lee and you, Lou, only. Alright? Lou, take the field."

I've finished my eighth year of umpiring, and I have not ejected a single coach. Not one. The closest I came was restricting a coach to the dugout. The only other instances (of noteworthiness) were two regarding meddlesome parents where I requested the coach(es) deal with them (and they did). I'm sure there's an ejection in my future â€” I'm not perfect â€” but that game hasn't been played yet.

But thereunto, I don't give coaches an opportunity to walk all over me. Sure, when I was starting out, I was not very sure of myself. This "Mad Max" persona, though, has been built up over these past eight years, especially in the last two. I'm 6'2", 200 lb., and (consciously try to) carry myself like a fighter pilot to every game. I fully dress the part (my Schutt AiR Flex CP makes me look like a football safety, though), and if it's a field that I haven't worked on before, I make sure to arrive extra early and _walk the field_ myself. Coaches notice these things.

The repoire I have with ballplayers is a big part of it too. I'm not their buddy, I'm not their friend, but I am that "Cool Ump named Mad Max" that hustles just as much as they do, and gets involved in _the game_ just as much as they do. On several occasions, I've had a catcher tell his coach, "Yeah, everything of Tommy's is outside", or "Coach, I missed the tag."

I study each partner I work with, and how they conduct themselves, and I can almost predict how a coach's exchange will go with that partner before it happens. Am I a prognosticator? Hardly... But you pick up on behaviours and trends. Best example â€“ One of my plate partners had a really shaky plate meeting, and made a critical error. He asked, "Are there any questions, or things I didn't cover?" One coach in particular seized on that opening, and in the first five words, I knew where this going - "Well, in a previous game... " he then went on to say the previous umpire drew on the ground what his strike zone was, and the coach proceeded to draw a circle off the plate in the dirt. I watched my partner's eyes go wide like a deer in headlights, and try to fumble for an answer. I stepped my foot in and erased that drawing, and said "Freddie's zone is his, and he'll address that." Then, two more questions were presented...

This gets into my point for this response. One of the reasons we are getting stuck with all these questions about our zone is _because_ there are some clod-headed umpire brethren _who allow coaches to question or explain their zone_!!! In my previous story, I wanted to find that umpire who drew his strike zone in the sand and hit him with a Clue-by-Four. WHACK! "Stop that!"

@James Walker, I'm not trying to sound harsh, but I'll remind you of the Domino Effect and how it applies to umpiring and your described game. By replying "We're not discussing balls and strikes," no matter how innocuous that statement itself is, it sets the dominos on edge and they begin falling... And once the dominos start falling, it takes an enormous amount of effort to keep the rest undisturbed. So too, human psychology tends to fixate on things we're denied or said "no" to. By saying "we're NOT discussing it", there is an increased chance that he will now fixate and perseverate on it.

If I was presented the question, "What's your strike zone like?", I would probably reply with "It likes puppies, meatloaf, and fat pitches down the pipe." Or, "Where's your strike zone?" with "I normally keep I it in a crate in the car, should be here when I say Play Ball!".

I don't have the nickname Mad Max without reason. :)

JaxRolo · August 7, 2014

Guys, Those plate conferences are way to long! Coaches are not listening. They have other things in their minds than have to listen to an umpire go on and on.

Keep it short!

MidAmUmp · August 8, 2014

I just got around to reading this.

Questioning the zone - I would have played dumb, "What do you mean?" Get him to clarify where he's going with it. Is he being a dick? Is he just curious? Some of these idiots will say they just want to know where to tell their pitcher to throw it...like some little kid has that sort of control. Depending on how he responds would determine my answer. It might range anywhere from I haven't figured that out yet to it's in the book.

The comment about having to be from somewhere to get a call - someone is going. They accused you of being a cheater. They've questioned your integrity. Enough said.

I definitely would have run him for brushing me.

Other than that, some suggestions & other comments...

Don't take off your mask until you're ready to eject. If the mask comes off, someone's going.

Plate meetings: these obviously vary by level but the main purpose of the meeting is to exchange line up cards and cover the ground rules. That's it. It's not about discussing slide rules, how to disagree about a call, or anything else. Obviously at some levels you need to confirm equipment and players are legal/equipped. A plate meeting should be short, sweet and to the point. This is where you establish your authority. By telling them if they want to discuss a call to wait until the play is over, call time and come out.......is 1) insulting to their coaching & 2) sets it in their minds that you anticipate either having issues or that you guys suck so bad that they are going to have reason to argue with you. I've actually walked away from a plate meeting before when my partner did that.

bluejerred · August 8, 2014

I saw LEGS on here for a plate meeting guide. I immediately adopted it and it hasn't failed me yet. (Lineups, Equipment, Ground rules/coin flip if needed, Shake hands - However, I don't go over sportsmanship, adults/coaches should know about it, I don't insult their intelligence, and it's not my job to teach it to them). Then I tell them, "Okay gents, the ladies are watching. Let's make it look good!" Takes all of 2-5 minutes depending on the depth of ground rules.

Also, when anyone asks me how I'm doing, I always tell them, "Super good! Best day of my life!". That always boosts the spirits of everyone around, including myself.

That's just me though. I'm weird like that.

And when all else fails and people are not bringing joy-joy feelings to all those around you, safety first and remember the great lessons from "Verbal Judo".

UmpJeff · August 8, 2014

I only had one HC a couple seasons ago ask me at the pre-game plate conference where my strike zone was today. I paused, then ever so calmly, yet matter-of-factly, said "well, we're kinda standing around it right now." He smiled and chuckled and said, "okay." He knew exactly what I said.

Nothing more was said about the strike zone that day. Fortunately, I've never been asked about "my" zone since.

Jeff C. · August 8, 2014

I just got around to reading this.
Questioning the zone - I would have played dumb, "What do you mean?" Get him to clarify where he's going with it. Is he being a dick? Is he just curious? Some of these idiots will say they just want to know where to tell their pitcher to throw it...like some little kid has that sort of control. Depending on how he responds would determine my answer. It might range anywhere from I haven't figured that out yet to it's in the book.
The comment about having to be from somewhere to get a call - someone is going. They accused you of being a cheater. They've questioned your integrity. Enough said.
I definitely would have run him for brushing me.
Other than that, some suggestions & other comments...
Don't take off your mask until you're ready to eject. If the mask comes off, someone's going.
Plate meetings: these obviously vary by level but the main purpose of the meeting is to exchange line up cards and cover the ground rules. That's it. It's not about discussing slide rules, how to disagree about a call, or anything else. Obviously at some levels you need to confirm equipment and players are legal/equipped. A plate meeting should be short, sweet and to the point. This is where you establish your authority.

I don't know how many partners I've had discuss how to approach us, during the plate meeting. I just cringe inside and stare ahead and try not to make eye contact with anyone.

Jeff C. · August 8, 2014

I did a fall ball game for my brother in law a couple of years ago. He asked me about my zone. "It's fall ball. You're about to find out" was my response. I only said that because it was my brother in law and he knows he can be a pita. I'd never say that to an actual coach.

Don · August 16, 2014

With a big smile on my face, "where is my strike zone, you kidding me, right, before the game even starts?" I like to call strikes and I have a short fuse for assistants.

zm1283 · August 25, 2014

I've never been asked the "Where is your zone?" question. I've always thought about it and have struggled to come up with a good answer if it were to ever come up. I think I would try to be humorous and say something along the lines of "You know I haven't really thought about it yet" or "What's that?".

BJones · October 2, 2014

If I ever get asked about my zone, which is rare, I just respond, "If the kids swing the bats, we won't have any problems".

That lets the coaches know what i would prefer to see from their kids, if it's close, swing at it!

What should I have done differently?

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