Correct placement

[JaxRolo]

R1 stealing<br />BR squares to bunt and pops up to F1.<br />R1 runs back to 1st as F1 overthrows ball into DBT.<br /><br />Place R1

[OHUMP]

R1 should now be awarded 3rd base.

[scrounge]

R1 should now be awarded 3rd base.

 

but R1 better touch 1B first or be subject to being out on appeal

[johnnyg08]

He gets third though.

[johnnyg08]

Very common myth that since he was diving back to first base, the award should only be second base, but whether he was diving back to the base or not is 100% irrelevant to the award. 

 

When you have this I promise you'll get a headed discussion except probably the upper NCAA levels and above of baseball.

[maven]

I'm guessing the issue is whether this counts as the first play by an infielder: if so, 1 base TOP, otherwise, 2 bases TOT.
 
Here's the FED rule:
 

In any situations other than (a) or (b), on a batted ball which is the first play by an infielder, all runners including the batter-runner are awarded two bases from their positions at the time of the pitch. For purposes of this rule, the act of ­fielding is not considered a play. 8-3-5

Although it's true that the act of fielding is not a play, making a catch and putting out the BR is a play. So the award is 2 bases, TOT, and R1 must retouch or be liable to be out on appeal.

 

OBR 7.05(g) is similar.

[grayhawk]

Very common myth that since he was diving back to first base, the award should only be second base, but whether he was diving back to the base or not is 100% irrelevant to the award. 

 

When you have this I promise you'll get a headed discussion except probably the upper NCAA levels and above of baseball.

 

Not sure it will always be heated, but you will almost certainly at least get a question, followed by a very confused look as HC starts back to his dugout.

[JaxRolo]

I'm guessing the issue is whether this counts as the first play by an infielder: if so, 1 base TOP, otherwise, 2 bases TOT.<br /> <br />Here's the FED rule:<br />

<br />In any situations other than (a) or (b), on a batted ball which is the first play by an infielder, all runners including the batter-runner are awarded two bases from their positions at the time of the pitch. For purposes of this rule, the act of ­fielding is not considered a play. 8-3-5

<br /><br />Although it's true that the act of fielding is not a play, making a catch and putting out the BR is a play. So the award is 2 bases, TOT, and R1 must retouch or be liable to be out on appeal.<br /><br />OBR 7.05(g) is similar.<br />Thanks that's where I got confused. But we ended up placing runner on 3rd.<br />

[grayhawk]

I'm guessing the issue is whether this counts as the first play by an infielder: if so, 1 base TOP, otherwise, 2 bases TOT.

 

Here's the FED rule:

 

In any situations other than (a) or (b), on a batted ball which is the first play by an infielder, all runners including the batter-runner are awarded two bases from their positions at the time of the pitch. For purposes of this rule, the act of ­fielding is not considered a play. 8-3-5

Although it's true that the act of fielding is not a play, making a catch and putting out the BR is a play. So the award is 2 bases, TOT, and R1 must retouch or be liable to be out on appeal.

 

OBR 7.05(g) is similar.

 

Not according to MLBUM:

 

MLBUM 37. Rules 7.05(g) and 7.10: Play or Attempted Play

The following interpretation of "play or attempted play" applies to both awarding of bases (Official Baseball Rule 7.05(g)) and appeal plays (Official Baseball Rule 7.10):

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. (The fact that the runner is not out is not relevant.) A fake or a feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or attempted play.

[JaxRolo]

Interesting

[th3]

 making a catch and putting out the BR is a play.

 

where did this come from? I like it but is it substantiated anywhere?

 

i think this does, actually:

 

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner

[JaxRolo]

 making a catch and putting out the BR is a play.

 

where did this come from? I like it but is it substantiated anywhere?

 

i think this does, actually:

 

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner

Runner or batter runner?

[afaber12]

If we assume that a fielder making a catch of a batter ball is a play as far as determine award of bases TOP v TOT, then an attempt to catch a batted ball is an attempted play. Not just a dropped catch but also an attempt where the fielder misses the ball completely, possibly even eventually fielded by another fielder. The ball that's chopped into or just in front of the plate is probably safe from any "attempt" (though F2 might have quick reflexes), but somewhere between that and a clear fly ball in the range if any of the fielders would be the boarder between an attempted play and not.

Add to that the idea that the fielder has to be "in possession of the ball". A legitimate attempt to catch the ball by a fielder doesn't necessarily even result in him gaining possession. A successful catch only occurs when a fielder gains possession, not someone who already has possession.

An attempt to catch a batted ball, successful or not, does not constitute a play as far as awarding bases is concerned.

[zm1283]

If we assume that a fielder making a catch of a batter ball is a play as far as determine award of bases TOP v TOT, then an attempt to catch a batted ball is an attempted play. Not just a dropped catch but also an attempt where the fielder misses the ball completely, possibly even eventually fielded by another fielder. The ball that's chopped into or just in front of the plate is probably safe from any "attempt" (though F2 might have quick reflexes), but somewhere between that and a clear fly ball in the range if any of the fielders would be the boarder between an attempted play and not.

Add to that the idea that the fielder has to be "in possession of the ball". A legitimate attempt to catch the ball by a fielder doesn't necessarily even result in him gaining possession. A successful catch only occurs when a fielder gains possession, not someone who already has possession.

An attempt to catch a batted ball, successful or not, does not constitute a play as far as awarding bases is concerned.

 

Correct. Catching the bunt pop up is not a play. The throw that goes into DBT is the first play by an infielder, hence two bases from TOP.

[zm1283]

I'm guessing the issue is whether this counts as the first play by an infielder: if so, 1 base TOP, otherwise, 2 bases TOT.

 

Here's the FED rule:

 

In any situations other than (a) or (b), on a batted ball which is the first play by an infielder, all runners including the batter-runner are awarded two bases from their positions at the time of the pitch. For purposes of this rule, the act of ­fielding is not considered a play. 8-3-5

Although it's true that the act of fielding is not a play, making a catch and putting out the BR is a play. So the award is 2 bases, TOT, and R1 must retouch or be liable to be out on appeal.

 

OBR 7.05(g) is similar.

 

Making a catch is not a play in regards to base awards when the ball is thrown into DBT. The throw to first base to retire R1 is a play, and it's the first play by an infielder so it's two bases TOP.

[goody14]

I'm guessing the issue is whether this counts as the first play by an infielder: if so, 1 base TOP, otherwise, 2 bases TOT.

 

Here's the FED rule:

 

In any situations other than (a) or (b), on a batted ball which is the first play by an infielder, all runners including the batter-runner are awarded two bases from their positions at the time of the pitch. For purposes of this rule, the act of ­fielding is not considered a play. 8-3-5

Although it's true that the act of fielding is not a play, making a catch and putting out the BR is a play. So the award is 2 bases, TOT, and R1 must retouch or be liable to be out on appeal.

 

OBR 7.05(g) is similar.

 

I think FED actually has another sentence buried in 8-3-5 that is apt:

When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch. 

 

Of course, I don't really know what they mean by "prevented" by a ball going into dead ball territory.  Outside of that, they appear to be very clear that a ball into DBT after a catch is 2 bases TOP.

[goody14]

Very common myth that since he was diving back to first base, the award should only be second base, but whether he was diving back to the base or not is 100% irrelevant to the award. 

 

When you have this I promise you'll get a headed discussion except probably the upper NCAA levels and above of baseball.

This play happened to me in a JV game last week.

 

Coach was a known "rule guy" who umpires summer ball in our association and came out in a calm manner and asked "his two bases and back to 1st and then 2nd".  I told him nope he gets 3rd.  He leaves without an argument.

 

2 innings later he is reporting subs.  With a smile, I ask him how many umpires he trips up on that placement situation.  His response "more than I should". 

[Thunderheads]

I'm guessing the issue is whether this counts as the first play by an infielder: if so, 1 base TOP, otherwise, 2 bases TOT.

 

Here's the FED rule:

 

In any situations other than (a) or (b), on a batted ball which is the first play by an infielder, all runners including the batter-runner are awarded two bases from their positions at the time of the pitch. For purposes of this rule, the act of ­fielding is not considered a play. 8-3-5

Although it's true that the act of fielding is not a play, making a catch and putting out the BR is a play. So the award is 2 bases, TOT, and R1 must retouch or be liable to be out on appeal.

 

OBR 7.05(g) is similar.

whao ?!?!  2 bases TOP first play from an infielder?  Or, am I losing it? 7.05 g

[maven]

Oops.

[Thunderheads]

Oops.

Write it down ..... I caught maven in a rules violation!

[lawump]

I have taught "base awards" to my association every year since 2005.  You can summarize my hour-long lecture to this (this is NOT my original work.  I learned this at umpire school):

 

(1) All overthrows are two base awards, except overthrows by a pitcher who was in-contact with the pitcher's plate at the time of the throw...which are 1-base awards.

 

(2) The trick for two base awards is to determine whether the award is two bases from the TOP or TOT.

 

(3)  The award is two bases from the TOP, if the overthrow is the result of a first play by an infielder.

 

(4) A play is:  (a) a tag or attempted tag of a runner in an attempt to retire the runner; (b) a tag or attempted tag of a base in an attempt to retire a runner; © a throw by one fielder to another fielder in an attempt to retire a runner.  [i think Jaksa/Roder was the first to create this list (which is where I learned it as the J/R manual was our "textbook" in umpire school) but it has now been adopted by various official umpire manuals as set forth above.]

 

(5)  All other overthrows (including first plays by outfielders, or second (or more) plays by infielder(s)) are two bases from time of throw.  Remember, "time of throw" is defined as the last base the runner had legally acquired the split second the ball left the fielder's hand...it is NOT where the runners were located at the time the ball entered DBT.

 

Not to flame here, but in the play in the OP, there is no way that this can be a 1-base award as an in-contact pitcher did not throw the ball into DBT.  Using #4 above, the throw by the fielder into DBT was the first play by an infielder, so the award is two bases from the time of the pitch.  At the time of the pitch (which is defined as the moment the pitcher commits himself to delivering the pitch to the batter), R1's legally acquired base was first base.  So, he gets third base. 

 

I found at umpire school, that if one memorizes the steps above, awarding bases actually becomes easy.  (Sure, there are a few curveballs that happen once-in-a-blue-moon (such as the concept of "subsequent push" which was in effect in MiLB when I was umpiring at that level) but overall you'll get the vast, vast majority correct if you learn the steps above, as I did when I attended umpire school.

 

I had this play in a pro game:  R1, no outs.  Ground ball to F6 on a hit-and-run.  F6 runs and tags second base.  I call "safe".  (There was no argument...it wasn't that close.)  F6 throws on to first base, but the throw goes into the stands.  Now, place the runners!  This is a TOT award.  The throw by F6 was his second play.  R1 was awarded home, the B/R was awarded second base.  (The B/R had not reached first base at the moment the ball left F6's hand.)  The DT manager came out and argued, "how can you give a guy three bases and the other guy two bases?"  But, we explained the rule (for literally 5 minutes) and he finally left without being ejected.

[Jimurray]

I think there is a vacuum in deciding that a catch for an out is the first play. Cites will be appreciated. There are cites that a dropped catch is not the first play.

[noumpere]

I think there is a vacuum in deciding that a catch for an out is the first play. Cites will be appreciated. There are cites that a dropped catch is not the first play.

It's in the MLBUM cited before: ".. a fielder who has possession of the ball..."  A fielder catching the ball does not HAVE the ball (until the catch is complete).

 

It's also in NCAA 9-3o AR2 "For the purpose of this rule, the act of fielding the ball ... is not considered a play" 

[Jimurray]

I think there is a vacuum in deciding that a catch for an out is the first play. Cites will be appreciated. There are cites that a dropped catch is not the first play.

It's in the MLBUM cited before: ".. a fielder who has possession of the ball..."  A fielder catching the ball does not HAVE the ball (until the catch is complete).

 

It's also in NCAA 9-3o AR2 "For the purpose of this rule, the act of fielding the ball ... is not considered a play"

What's confusing to me is the BRD has a JR reference that dropping a line drive or pop up is not a play.

[Mad Mike]

@Jimurray - where in the BRD are you seeing this? I would like to look it up.