Is a throw required for interference?

[maven]

 

I disagree with the assertion that a throw must be made for BI

I disagree with the assertion that such assertion was made (in this thread).

 

 

@GetItRight made it (or implied it) in post #5.

 

I wondered the same when I saw that.

[grayhawk]

I was going to post yesterday that my opinion is that a throw is required for RLI because the runner has to be 45 feet down the line for RLI to even be considered, but I knew someone would post that the fielder could be close to the runner in some situations.  Well, guess what happened yesterday?

 

JV game, I'm on the dish.  Batter bunts down the 1B line and it is close to the line.  Runner passes the ball and F1 is coming over to field it.  He's trying to decide whether or not it will go foul and decides, correctly, that it will not.  I have come up the line to get a good view and once he touches it, I point fair.  F1 picks it up and immediately throws the ball over the heads of the runner and F3 into right field.  To be honest, I was not certain if the runner was completely in the lane.  If he was out of it, it would have been his left foot and barely out.  I rule that it's nothing and nobody said a word.  Of course, in OBR, it was not a quality throw and most definitely nothing.  In Fed, it could still be RLI with that terrible throw.

[Dash Riprock]

 

In Fed, it could still be RLI with that terrible throw.

It most definitely would be if the B/R was out of the lane.

[grayhawk]

 

In Fed, it could still be RLI with that terrible throw.

It most definitely would be if the B/R was out of the lane.

 

 

If his left foot is one inch to the left of the foul line and the fielder airmails it into RF, are you making that call?

[maven]

If his left foot is one inch to the left of the foul line and the fielder airmails it into RF, are you making that call?

Your question suggests that you might like to import the OBR criterion into your FED RLI rulings.

 

Runner out of lane + throw = FED RLI

 

Do you call runners safe who almost beat the throw, say, by an inch?

[grayhawk]

 

If his left foot is one inch to the left of the foul line and the fielder airmails it into RF, are you making that call?

Your question suggests that you might like to import the OBR criterion into your FED RLI rulings.

 

Runner out of lane + throw = FED RLI

 

Do you call runners safe who almost beat the throw, say, by an inch?

 

 

My question suggests that one can be a rulebook umpire, or one can apply common sense and fair play in a situation like this.

[johnnyg08]

I think the odd thing about the FED RLI rule is that a quality throw isn't necessary. 

 

There is no judgment required.  F3 can't glove the throw, it's RLI (assuming B/R is in violation)

[UmpJM]

johnny,

 

That's not quite right.

 

Even in FED, you must judge that the runner being out of the lane actually interfered with the fielder or the throw.

 

If the runner isn't in the "throwing lane", he's not guilty of RLI even if out of the lane.

 

JM

[Dash Riprock]

 

 

If his left foot is one inch to the left of the foul line and the fielder airmails it into RF, are you making that call?

 

If I am 100% sure he is out of the lane (and it might be tough to be 100% if the BR is one inch out and I am 60 feet away), yes.

[zm1283]

I think the odd thing about the FED RLI rule is that a quality throw isn't necessary. 

 

There is no judgment required.  F3 can't glove the throw, it's RLI (assuming B/R is in violation)

 

Guys, I was wrong. My understanding of the FED rule is that a quality throw is not required, NOT that a throw is not required. I was thinking incorrectly. I am of the same thinking that johnny is in this post above.

 

 

johnny,

 

That's not quite right.

 

Even in FED, you must judge that the runner being out of the lane actually interfered with the fielder or the throw.

 

If the runner isn't in the "throwing lane", he's not guilty of RLI even if out of the lane.

 

JM

 

What you're posting sounds more like the NCAA/OBR version of the RLI rule. Didn't FED change their rule just a few years ago and say that a quality throw is not required, and if the B/R is outside the lane when the throw is made, it is RLI no matter what? I don't have a FED rule or case book handy, but I am thinking they made their RLI rule much more strict than the other rule sets.

 

So, B/R bunts a ball a few feet up the first base line, F2 goes to pick it up, B/R's left foot is inside the first base line past the 45-foot mark, F2 air mails an uncatchable throw 10 feet over F3's head into right field....by the book, I understand that is RLI in FED. If I'm off here, point me in the right direction.

[alex7]

I have no idea how FED came up with the idea that you can have RLI with no throw. It is right up there at the top of their list of hair-brained ideas about rules. 

 

They don't want catchers having to peg runners like in college or the pros in order to get the call.

 

It's similar to the FPSR, the SS/2B does not have to throw the ball and plunk the runner to get an INT call if the kid doesn't slide.

 

If you think the RLV is what caused the catcher to abort the throw, call it.  A pump fake, his arm coming up and then looking at you, or pointing at the runner, or just that hesitation with his arm cocked...this is what I've heard at multiple trainings for FED.  Kids at that age tend to, like the OP said, not throw the ball when they think they'll hit a kid.

 

If you're worried about quality of games you'll get, just figure that if you ARE getting good games, those catchers are more likely to make the actual throw, and it's usually only a problem at younger FED levels.

[Dash Riprock]

 

I think the odd thing about the FED RLI rule is that a quality throw isn't necessary. 

 

There is no judgment required.  F3 can't glove the throw, it's RLI (assuming B/R is in violation)

 

Guys, I was wrong. My understanding of the FED rule is that a quality throw is not required, NOT that a throw is not required. I was thinking incorrectly. I am of the same thinking that johnny is in this post above.

 

 

johnny,

 

That's not quite right.

 

Even in FED, you must judge that the runner being out of the lane actually interfered with the fielder or the throw.

 

If the runner isn't in the "throwing lane", he's not guilty of RLI even if out of the lane.

 

JM

 

What you're posting sounds more like the NCAA/OBR version of the RLI rule. Didn't FED change their rule just a few years ago and say that a quality throw is not required, and if the B/R is outside the lane when the throw is made, it is RLI no matter what?

 

It was not a rule change, just an interpretation that a quality throw is not required for RLI  (that's the difference between FED and other codes).  The rule has always required actual interference.  FED 8-4-1-g-1.  "This infraction is ignored if...the act does not interfere with a fielder or a throw."  If a throw is made, and the BR is in the throwing lane, he is presumed to have interfered even if the throw is 10 feet over F3's head (no quality throw required).  If the BR is out of the lane on the foul side, and F2 throws from fair territory, there was no INT, so no RLI.

[UmpJM]

zm,

 

Dash summed up what I was suggesting pretty well.

 

The one addition that I would make is that in OBR/NCAA only the fielder receiving the throw at 1B receives "protction" under the RLI rule; under FED, both the fielder receiving the throw and the fielder making the throw receive protection.

 

JM

[Kevin_K]

 

I disagree with the assertion that a throw must be made for BI

I disagree with the assertion that such assertion was made (in this thread).

 

 

My disagreement is based on response #5

[Dash Riprock]

 

 

I disagree with the assertion that a throw must be made for BI

I disagree with the assertion that such assertion was made (in this thread).

 

 

My disagreement is based on response #5

 

Post #5 makes no assertion that a throw must be made.

[Dash Riprock]

 

I'm curious about the source of the Hopkins cite made by @Gil: Owner - UEFL above.

 

 

Carl's cite (my book is 2011):  Website 2002, #11;  affirmed, Website 2010, #7

 

I assume Carl is referring to the interpretations FED puts out at the beginning of each year.  The FED website (Arbiter Central Hub) doesn't have past years' interpretations (or they do, but I don't know how to access them).

 

Edited to add:  If that interpretation hasn't changed, then it's pretty clear - you need a throw for RLI in FED.

 

@Kevin_K:  Your disagreement is now valid.

[Lindsay]

Carl's cite stayed the same through 2013 so unless we're looking at a rules change that wasn't advertised in advance of this season, we're going with that same interp.

[zm1283]

 

 

I think the odd thing about the FED RLI rule is that a quality throw isn't necessary. 

 

There is no judgment required.  F3 can't glove the throw, it's RLI (assuming B/R is in violation)

 

Guys, I was wrong. My understanding of the FED rule is that a quality throw is not required, NOT that a throw is not required. I was thinking incorrectly. I am of the same thinking that johnny is in this post above.

 

 

johnny,

 

That's not quite right.

 

Even in FED, you must judge that the runner being out of the lane actually interfered with the fielder or the throw.

 

If the runner isn't in the "throwing lane", he's not guilty of RLI even if out of the lane.

 

JM

 

What you're posting sounds more like the NCAA/OBR version of the RLI rule. Didn't FED change their rule just a few years ago and say that a quality throw is not required, and if the B/R is outside the lane when the throw is made, it is RLI no matter what?

 

It was not a rule change, just an interpretation that a quality throw is not required for RLI  (that's the difference between FED and other codes).  The rule has always required actual interference.  FED 8-4-1-g-1.  "This infraction is ignored if...the act does not interfere with a fielder or a throw."  If a throw is made, and the BR is in the throwing lane, he is presumed to have interfered even if the throw is 10 feet over F3's head (no quality throw required).  If the BR is out of the lane on the foul side, and F2 throws from fair territory, there was no INT, so no RLI.

 

 

Okay, I knew it was something that FED put out. Didn't know it was an interpretation. 

 

zm,

 

Dash summed up what I was suggesting pretty well.

 

The one addition that I would make is that in OBR/NCAA only the fielder receiving the throw at 1B receives "protction" under the RLI rule; under FED, both the fielder receiving the throw and the fielder making the throw receive protection.

 

JM

 

I'm pretty comfortable with the OBR/NCAA runner's lane rule. The FED one is just goofy, hence the confusion.

[Dash Riprock]

 

I'm pretty comfortable with the OBR/NCAA runner's lane rule. The FED one is just goofy, hence the confusion.

 

It's the same rule except there is no judgment on the quality of the throw.