RLV/Quality Throw

[refump10]

Digging into the rule/case books last night, and can't find a definitive answer...No outs, no runners. B1 bunts fair 10' up 1BL.  F2 fields and throws 10' over F3's head.  B1, however, was running 3' inside the baseline instead of in the running lane.  Do we still have a running lane violation even though the throw was so poor?  I'm probably missing a case play right in front of me, but thought I would put it out there for discussion

[ricka56]

Several years ago there was a POE about calling RLI. I can't find it, but we got a clarification from Elliot Hopkins who said that a throw was required, but a quality throw was not required.

[Thunderheads]

For FED, this is

 

Several years ago there was a POE about calling RLI. I can't find it, but we got a clarification from Elliot Hopkins who said that a throw was required, but a quality throw was not required.

Correct, this is a RLV in FED .... as long as there's a throw, quality matters not...

[JaxRolo]

QOT is not necessary like others have said. As long as he is throwing towards first. If he throws the ball to F5 I might not be inclined to call it.

[ricka56]

QOT is not necessary like others have said. As long as he is throwing towards first. If he throws the ball to F5 I might not be inclined to call it.

 

might? who was the BR, Jimmy Piersall?

 

I once had a partner call RLI on a throw from F5

[JaxRolo]

I had a partner call RLI on a throw from F5

We were once told at a college clinic that this was possible. But very highly unlikely.

[refump10]

Thanks for the replies.  Been away from baseball for a long time (20 years).  Amazing what has changed. 

[noumpere]

I would just add that while a quality throw is not required, the batter-runner still needs to be approximately between the fielder and F3.

 

So in your play with a fair bunt if BR had been running in FOUL territory and it was a bad throw, no RLI.

[Jimurray]

I would just add that while a quality throw is not required, the batter-runner still needs to be approximately between the fielder and F3.

 

So in your play with a fair bunt if BR had been running in FOUL territory and it was a bad throw, no RLI.

The caseplay that did not require a quality throw is no longer there. I believe it actually did not mention quality throw. It called the violation because the catcher tried to throw over the runner and it went high over F3. I think the point was that if you thought the catcher was trying to avoid hitting the runner you could call the violation on a non quality throw. I think in other cases you could still require a quality throw.

[Dash Riprock]

I would just add that while a quality throw is not required, the batter-runner still needs to be approximately between the fielder and F3.

 

So in your play with a fair bunt if BR had been running in FOUL territory and it was a bad throw, no RLI.

This.  Although FED does not require a quality throw, there must be actual interference (either with the throw or F3 fielding the throw) for there to be a violation.

 

Another thing:  from the OP, it is not clear where the BR was when F2 threw wildly to 1st.  If the BR is not at least half way to 1st base, RLI is not possible.

[Rich Ives]

 

QOT is not necessary like others have said. As long as he is throwing towards first. If he throws the ball to F5 I might not be inclined to call it.

 

might? who was the BR, Jimmy Piersall?

 

I once had a partner call RLI on a throw from F5

 

 

Jimmy did NOT run the bases in reverse order (3B, 2B, 1B, HP).  He backpedaled (ran backwards) around the bases in the required order. It was his 100th MLB HR.  I, WITH MY OWN EYES, SAW THE FILM ON THE SPORTS BROADCAST.

 

For OBR, the BRD has a ruling from PBUC that RLI can happen on ANY throw.

[baseballfan]

 

 

 

 

 

QOT is not necessary like others have said. As long as he is throwing towards first. If he throws the ball to F5 I might not be inclined to call it.

 

might? who was the BR, Jimmy Piersall?

 

I once had a partner call RLI on a throw from F5

 

 

Jimmy did NOT run the bases in reverse order (3B, 2B, 1B, HP).  He backpedaled (ran backwards) around the bases in the required order. It was his 100th MLB HR.  I, WITH MY OWN EYES, SAW THE FILM ON THE SPORTS BROADCAST.

 

For OBR, the BRD has a ruling from PBUC that RLI can happen on ANY throw.

 

Do you mean a throw from any position? Or quality of throw? Because for PBUC, quality of throw is essential here. We learned that at TUS.

 

[VAUmp]

Can anyone site the rule that states there need not be a quality throw?

[maven]

Can anyone site the rule that states there need not be a quality throw?

 

No rule in any code mentions a "quality throw." The concept of a "quality throw" is an interpretation applied to the pro rule as a way of limiting the notion of hindrance, since pro catchers are expected to make better throws. A quality throw is one that might have retired the BR, absent the interference.

 

There is no such interp applied to the FED rule: we simply go with the idea that the runner has violated the rule if he is outside the lane when the ball is thrown to 1B and his being there hinders the defense, per 8-4-1-g.

[noumpere]

Can anyone site the rule that states there need not be a quality throw?

SITUATION 7: B1 lays down a bunt that is fielded by F2 in fair territory a few feet in front of home plate. As B1 is 60 feet from home base, he is running outside the running lane with one foot completely in fair ground and not touching the lines of the running lane. F2 fields the ball and (a) attempts to throw to first but throws high into right field as he tries not to hit B1, or (b) does not attempt a throw. RULING: B1 is required to be in the running lane the last 45 feet to first base when the ball is fielded and thrown from an area behind him. In (a), this is interference and B1 is out and the ball is declared dead. In (b), since there was no throw, there is no interference. F2 is not required to hit B1 to demonstrate that B1 is out of the running lane, but a throw must be made for the interference to be declared. (8-4-1g

[Jimurray]

 

Can anyone site the rule that states there need not be a quality throw?

SITUATION 7: B1 lays down a bunt that is fielded by F2 in fair territory a few feet in front of home plate. As B1 is 60 feet from home base, he is running outside the running lane with one foot completely in fair ground and not touching the lines of the running lane. F2 fields the ball and (a) attempts to throw to first but throws high into right field as he tries not to hit B1, or (b) does not attempt a throw. RULING: B1 is required to be in the running lane the last 45 feet to first base when the ball is fielded and thrown from an area behind him. In (a), this is interference and B1 is out and the ball is declared dead. In (b), since there was no throw, there is no interference. F2 is not required to hit B1 to demonstrate that B1 is out of the running lane, but a throw must be made for the interference to be declared. (8-4-1g

 

This is similar to the caseplay that disappeared. It's from 2010 so it probably is still current. You still have to judge if the errant throw was due to the batter out of the lane.

BTW, in OBR, Wendelstedt sort of defined a quality throw (not mentioned in their manual) as a throw that could reasonably retire the runner. 

[Cav]

 

Can anyone site the rule that states there need not be a quality throw?

SITUATION 7: B1 lays down a bunt that is fielded by F2 in fair territory a few feet in front of home plate. As B1 is 60 feet from home base, he is running outside the running lane with one foot completely in fair ground and not touching the lines of the running lane. F2 fields the ball and (a) attempts to throw to first but throws high into right field as he tries not to hit B1, or (b) does not attempt a throw. RULING: B1 is required to be in the running lane the last 45 feet to first base when the ball is fielded and thrown from an area behind him. In (a), this is interference and B1 is out and the ball is declared dead. In (b), since there was no throw, there is no interference. F2 is not required to hit B1 to demonstrate that B1 is out of the running lane, but a throw must be made for the interference to be declared. (8-4-1g

 

 

Good find. 

 

If these "supplemental" NFHS interpretations do not make the next edition of their rule book, are they still applicable, especially if the governing rule hasn't been modified or deleted?  I think so.    

 

[johnnyg08]

If these "supplemental" NFHS interpretations do not make the next edition of their rule book, are they still applicable, especially if the governing rule hasn't been modified or deleted?  I think so.

They are still applicable unless of course there's a rule change that would put the old interpretation in conflict w/ the new rule. (Which doesn't apply here)

[johnnyg08]

Here's one from 2015:

[Cav]

Here's one from 2015:

 

Excellent example of authoritative and definitive confusion, for me at least. 

 

NFHS/Referee Baseball Preseason Guide 2015, Running Lane, Baseline, Basepath: Not All the Same, "Play 1: Ruling1" on p. 12:

 

"The quality... of the throw [does] not matter"  What's the call when the throw is caught (perhaps in flight; have you been to some of my games?!) by F9 backing up the play near the on-field bullpen down the RF line, or by a spectator in the stands?  I'm exaggerating here (or am I?) to make a point.

 

"The...direction of the throw [does] not matter."  Really?  What's the call when F2 goes to F1 near the hill for no other reason than to make the obligatory throw safely?

 

"If B1 is outside the running lane at the time of the throw..., B1 is out for interference."  Is it automatic, or does there actually have to be interference like briefly mentioned in the printed rule?

 

"If B1 is outside the running lane...then interferes with the fielding of the throw, B1 is out for interference."  This is the one statement in the entire ruling that I can and do live by.  

 

As others smarter than me have said and written, a BR running outside the lane demonstrates by his position his intent to interfere.  But, does the crew still need some sort of interference in either throwing to or receiving at 1B to make the interference call?

[johnnyg08]

Here's one from 2015:

 

Excellent example of authoritative and definitive confusion, for me at least. 

 

NFHS/Referee Baseball Preseason Guide 2015, Running Lane, Baseline, Basepath: Not All the Same, "Play 1: Ruling1" on p. 12:

 

"The quality... of the throw [does] not matter"  What's the call when the throw is caught (perhaps in flight; have you been to some of my games?!) by F9 backing up the play near the on-field bullpen down the RF line, or by a spectator in the stands?  I'm exaggerating here (or am I?) to make a point.

 

"The...direction of the throw [does] not matter."  Really?  What's the call when F2 goes to F1 near the hill for no other reason than to make the obligatory throw safely?

 

"If B1 is outside the running lane at the time of the throw..., B1 is out for interference."  Is it automatic, or does there actually have to be interference like briefly mentioned in the printed rule?

 

"If B1 is outside the running lane...then interferes with the fielding of the throw, B1 is out for interference."  This is the one statement in the entire ruling that I can and do live by.  

 

As others smarter than me have said and written, a BR running outside the lane demonstrates by his position his intent to interfere.  But, does the crew still need some sort of interference in either throwing to or receiving at 1B to make the interference call?

A throw must be made. The quality of the throw doesn't matter by the letter of the rule. No throw, can't have RLI.

"The...direction of the throw [does] not matter."  Really?  What's the call when F2 goes to F1 near the hill for no other reason than to make the obligatory throw safely? The call would be Safe or Out...probably safe if F2 is running that far.

[MPLSUMP]

There has to be a throw. If it's 20 feet over F3/F4 head at 1B, in FED, it's interference if B/R is outside the runners lane. Last step can be inside though, while trying to reach 1B.

[johnnyg08]

Here's an example of textbook RLI.

There has to be a throw. If it's 20 feet over F3/F4 head at 1B, in FED, it's interference if B/R is outside the runners lane. Last step can be inside though, while trying to reach 1B.

Assuming of course that he hasn't been illegal the entire way to 1B.

[Majordave]

And did you guys notice that the umpire calling the play had to eventually dump the manager?  As I have stated over and over again.  Make this call, have to explain it and then usually warn or restrict or eject.   RLI/RLV calls evoke some serious emotions.

 

Great clip.  Thanks @johnnyg08.

[grayhawk]

Exactly Dave. No brainier call and the coach still feels like he was screwed. Do they wonder why we call them rats?