OSU/OU - stealing home (video)

[grayhawk]

Forward to 1:50 in this video:

 

http://www.soonersports.com/sports/m-basebl/recaps/051113aad.html

 

Whacha got?

[MidAmUmp]

I've got 3 of the best college umpires in the country working probably the most intense rivalry in college baseball and I'm happy to consider all 3 of them friends.

[Umpire in Chief]

I couldn't tell if the pitcher was engaged from the video.

 

Corrected. He appeared to be engaged. I have the very rare catchers int.

[dumbdumb]

I've got 3 of the best college umpires in the country working probably the most intense rivalry in college baseball and I'm happy to consider all 3 of them friends.

Well, one worked the 99,03,06 CWS

one worked the 07,09,12 CWS

one worked the 11 CWS

 

Seems pretty good to me.

 

At :03 that move is why nobody can play little ball anymore, since it has been deemed legal.

 

Is the catcher allowed to jump that far out in front of home plate???? When does this constitute a balk or catchers interference (does the bat have to hit the glove for CI on a pitch to draw the CI on this play---wasn't there a time where the catcher could not do this???). If CI and everyone does not advance, what does it become. Is there an option on this play???

[Jimurray]

Forward to 1:50 in this video:

http://www.soonersports.com/sports/m-basebl/recaps/051113aad.html

Whacha got?

I've got a catcher with a sore back if the batter had swung. Since he didn't swing I have nothing because he was safe and I don't have to go there. If I go there, CI, R3 to HP, Batter to 1B any other runner to account for? Takes gonads and nobody's making that call lately. Added to ask what was the pitch called?

[Thunderheads]

nothing

[grayhawk]

F2 clearly stepped directly on the plate and reaches for the pitch with his glove in front of the batter.  This is a balk and CI (OBR & NCAA) or catcher's obstruction (Fed).  R3 awarded home and batter awarded first in all codes.

[Umpire in Chief]

For reference: NCAA

8-2 The batter becomes a base runner:

8-2-e: If any defensive player interferes with the batter’s swing or prevents the individual from striking at a pitched ball;

8-2-e-2-Exception: If there is catcher’s interference on a squeeze play, the batter is awarded first base, the run scores and all other runners advance one base on the balk created by the interference

[Tony B]

I've got 3 of the best college umpires in the country working probably the most intense rivalry in college baseball and I'm happy to consider all 3 of them friends.

 

Undoubtedly. 3 of the top.

 

 

 

I've got 3 of the best college umpires in the country working probably the most intense rivalry in college baseball and I'm happy to consider all 3 of them friends.

Well, one worked the 99,03,06 CWS

one worked the 07,09,12 CWS

one worked the 11 CWS

 

Seems pretty good to me.

 

At :03 that move is why nobody can play little ball anymore, since it has been deemed legal.

 

Is the catcher allowed to jump that far out in front of home plate???? When does this constitute a balk or catchers interference (does the bat have to hit the glove for CI on a pitch to draw the CI on this play---wasn't there a time where the catcher could not do this???). If CI and everyone does not advance, what does it become. Is there an option on this play???

 

 

Here's a still from the video _sorry the quality is not good I'm not good at doing this.

 

 

So the catcher is clearly interfering IMHO.

 

But- somebody correct me if I'm wrong - the video does not show if the PU or rest of the crew awarded the batter first so lets not be so quick to jump on them and say they missed a call. We see an apparent rules violation, but we don't get the rest of the story or potential award. 

 

So does anybody actually know if CI/Catchers Balk was actually called or not?

 

Until we know that lets give these guys credit as they are among the elite of the elite in the NCAA D-I world. It would be unfair otherwise.

 

And if they did not, that does not make them a Smitty, just human like the rest of us who would kill to be in their plate shoes.

 

Back under my rock

[MidAmUmp]

F2 clearly stepped directly on the plate and reaches for the pitch with his glove in front of the batter.  This is a balk and CI (OBR & NCAA) or catcher's obstruction (Fed).  R3 awarded home and batter awarded first in all codes.

Yeah...you go ahead and call that.  Let me know how that works out for you.  Again, common sense and fair play...

 

I have no problem posting videos and having discussions about them but are you seriously advocating calling this???????

 

As I said above, these are 3 of the best college umpires in the country.  They know what they are doing.  My guess is if I called Randy right now and asked him why he didn't call a balk and catcher's interference on that play he'd either hang up on me or not even know what I was talking about (because he didn't see it with everything else going on) and then hang up on me.

 

1) In "real time" (on the field, not in front of your TV or computer screen) very few umpires at any level are going to recognize this play as a Balk/C.I. with everything else happening.  

 

2) Those at that level who would recognize it aren't going to call it.  As I've said several times, sometimes it's okay to be wrong.

 

3) I'll guarantee there wasn't one person in either dugout who saw it or wanted a balk/C.I.

 

4) I'd seriously doubt any supervisor in the stands or watching at home even batted an eyelash.

 

Again, I don't have any issue with posting videos and talking about plays but come on...this isn't something that should ever be called in that situation.  If the batter tried to swing at the pitch is the only time you'd ever call it.

[mstaylor]

My question remains the same every time this is brought up, how do you call the pitch? You either call the interference or the pitch. You can't call the pitch of IT didn't get there

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[bam]

F2 clearly stepped directly on the plate and reaches for the pitch with his glove in front of the batter.  This is a balk and CI (OBR & NCAA) or catcher's obstruction (Fed).  R3 awarded home and batter awarded first in all codes.

Yeah...you go ahead and call that.  Let me know how that works out for you.  Again, common sense and fair play...

 

I have no problem posting videos and having discussions about them but are you seriously advocating calling this???????

 

 

 

Um, that's about the silliest thing I've ever seen you post.

 

He IS discussing it.  He disagrees with you (and three of the bestest, most brightest umpires ever, apparently).  

 

I think we had a similar video posted here a while back, or maybe it was a discription of a play, and I came down frimly on the side of NOT calling something like this, but was heavily outvoted, and had my integrity, heritage, and genus questioned.

[bam]

My question remains the same every time this is brought up, how do you call the pitch? 

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"ball" or "strike" 

[maven]

THAT pitch? I'm thinking, ball.

maven

[grayhawk]

MidAm, I have a lot of respect for you on this site, but I don't really care if you know these umpires, or how good they are.  They are obviously excellent umpires or they wouldn't be at that level.  I am NOT criticizing them - I posted this video as a learning tool for us all.

 

If you say that the only time that this should be called at this level is when the batter swings, then I will believe you.  That does not, however, mean that what we are seeing in the video is a legal play by the catcher.  It isn't.

 

So in D1, this shouldn't be called.  How about at the levels that 99% of the umpires out here are calling?  HS, Pony, Little League, Travel Ball, etc?  What would you teach at your clinic?

[Mad Mike]

My question remains the same every time this is brought up, how do you call the pitch? You either call the interference or the pitch. You can't call the pitch of IT didn't get there

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I agree, it's not like you can call a no-pitch on this one. It certainly was way over his head and a ball, but the rule clearly states it is a balk and the BR is awarded first and 3BR is awarded home because he was stealing on the play. Thus, you don't rule the play a ball, you would enforce the balk.

 

In most balk cases, the Offensive Manager gets to either take the result of the play or the award(s). However, using the 8-2-e-2 rule, it would appear there is no choice....and if I'm the manager, it's a no brainer to take the award and send my batter to first and score the run. If I don't call this play and I have a savy manager, I am going to get an argument (and a chewing which I would deserve).

 

 

F2 clearly stepped directly on the plate and reaches for the pitch with his glove in front of the batter.  This is a balk and CI (OBR & NCAA) or catcher's obstruction (Fed).  R3 awarded home and batter awarded first in all codes.

Yeah...you go ahead and call that.  Let me know how that works out for you.  Again, common sense and fair play...

 

I have no problem posting videos and having discussions about them but are you seriously advocating calling this???????

 

As I said above, these are 3 of the best college umpires in the country.  They know what they are doing.  My guess is if I called Randy right now and asked him why he didn't call a balk and catcher's interference on that play he'd either hang up on me or not even know what I was talking about (because he didn't see it with everything else going on) and then hang up on me.

 

1) In "real time" (on the field, not in front of your TV or computer screen) very few umpires at any level are going to recognize this play as a Balk/C.I. with everything else happening.  

 

2) Those at that level who would recognize it aren't going to call it.  As I've said several times, sometimes it's okay to be wrong.

 

3) I'll guarantee there wasn't one person in either dugout who saw it or wanted a balk/C.I.

 

4) I'd seriously doubt any supervisor in the stands or watching at home even batted an eyelash.

 

Again, I don't have any issue with posting videos and talking about plays but come on...this isn't something that should ever be called in that situation.  If the batter tried to swing at the pitch is the only time you'd ever call it.

 

As umpires we have alot of subjectivity that leaks into the game at times. However, in this case, the pitcher is engaged, throws the ball, the catcher interferes as pointed out in the rule 8-2 (and prevented the batter from swinging). These are facts and are not subjective. Would if be any different if they tried to squeeze the runner with a bunt and the catcher reached out and touched the bat while the BR was bunting? While it might make the call more palatable for many umpires, we can clearly defend a balk call here due to the catcher's actions! The minute we fail to call these plays because we are worried about the #$*@ storm, then we should probably stop umpiring and take a job handing out ice cream where everyone is happy.

[Mad Mike]

As a side note, I liked the base umpires call at 1:20 in this video. Different play - Groundball to SS, R2 going to 3B. Rings R2 up for going out of baseline to avoid the tag by SS.

[grayhawk]

@Mad Mike

 

"In most balk cases, the Offensive Manager gets to either take the result of the play or the award(s)."

 

This is not accurate.  There is no choice on a balk.  You either enforce it, or ignore it.  You only ignore it if all runners, including the batter runner, reach the next base.

[Jimurray]

 

F2 clearly stepped directly on the plate and reaches for the pitch with his glove in front of the batter.  This is a balk and CI (OBR & NCAA) or catcher's obstruction (Fed).  R3 awarded home and batter awarded first in all codes.

Yeah...you go ahead and call that.  Let me know how that works out for you.  Again, common sense and fair play...

 

I have no problem posting videos and having discussions about them but are you seriously advocating calling this???????

 

As I said above, these are 3 of the best college umpires in the country.  They know what they are doing.  My guess is if I called Randy right now and asked him why he didn't call a balk and catcher's interference on that play he'd either hang up on me or not even know what I was talking about (because he didn't see it with everything else going on) and then hang up on me.

 

1) In "real time" (on the field, not in front of your TV or computer screen) very few umpires at any level are going to recognize this play as a Balk/C.I. with everything else happening.  

 

2) Those at that level who would recognize it aren't going to call it.  As I've said several times, sometimes it's okay to be wrong.

 

3) I'll guarantee there wasn't one person in either dugout who saw it or wanted a balk/C.I.

 

4) I'd seriously doubt any supervisor in the stands or watching at home even batted an eyelash.

 

Again, I don't have any issue with posting videos and talking about plays but come on...this isn't something that should ever be called in that situation.  If the batter tried to swing at the pitch is the only time you'd ever call it.

 

 

If the pitch was better and caught in front of home plate would you call the out if the tag was applied?

[mbrown2097]

ignoring the obvious question, I've got a dam gutsy call by OU.  Love aggressive calls like this..

[MidAmUmp]

Apparently I've ruffled some feathers. Let me clarify some things and explain where I'm coming from...

@ anyone who doesn't care that I know these guys - I don't expect anyone to care that I know these 3 umpires. The point really doesn't matter, other than the fact that I have worked with them, have been taught by them, and instructed with them and have a better idea than anyone else on here what was probably going through their minds.
@ bam - Did I criticize you in the post you made of a similar call? If so, what post is it and I'll go back and take a look at it again.
@ grayhawk - At any level I would advise applying rules with common sense and fair play. I'll elaborate later. Also, I don't have a problem with posting the video. My take on it is the learning tool to take away is that the umpires did a great job of using common sense and fair play vs. applying a black and white rule.
@ Mad Mike - Another fact that is not subjective is the batter never attempted to hit the pitch. Yes, it would be different if he attempted to hit the pitch. Again, I'll elaborate later.
@ Jimurray - Initially yes, but would be willing to get help if an argument ensued about a possible balk, C.I., etc. Again, in real time taking everything into consideration I don't think very many umpires would recognize what the catcher did and enforce the rule as written. You think you would (I'd like to think I would) but the reality is we can't process every bit of that information that quickly. Again, I'll elaborate.

Okay, here's my take (and if my language offends anyone, sorry)...
First, let's set the entire scene just so we're clear: Oklahoma (#13 in the nation) vs. Oklahoma State (#19 in the nation). Big Twelve conference game late in the year, they are fighting for position in the conference tournament. It's the Bedlam Series (NCAA version of Yankees vs. Red Sox...no love loss between these two programs). One coach is one of the top 5 hardest coaches to work for in the country, the other is in his first year and trying to make a name for himself. 7108 screaming, cussing, drunken rednecks are in the stands, most are cussing you like you've never been cussed before (fights are known to break out in the stands during this series). The game is being televised on Fox Sports. There might be an NCAA evaluator in the stands who is still making recommendations to the NCAA on who gets post season assignments. Supervisors, Big XII, and NCAA officials are watching at home (not to mention the Umpire-Empire crowd) evaluating how the umpires do. And while you may not think any of this matters, I can tell you every asshole on that field is puckered. This isn't the Pirates vs. the Angels at the city park with Banker Steve coaching one team and Bobby Dwayne, professional shade tree mechanic, skippering the other team. This is an intense series.

Now, as I posted recently in a debate with someone on here about calling strikes when the pitch crosses the plate because that's what the rule book says, I believe you need to always umpire and enforce rules with common sense and fair play. I believe it's okay to be wrong - i.e.: I'm not going to make the middle infielder stand on 2nd base to catch the throw on a double play as long as his footwork is good and the throw to him is accurate. I'm not going to insist on a fielder actually tagging a runner who is obviously out if he makes one swipe, makes it look good, and doesn't try to tag a 2nd time. And in this instance, I'm not going to start a ###### storm on a wild pitch on a straight steal of home because the catcher got out there to try to catch it and hindered the batter who wasn't attempting to hit the pitch.

Having said all of that, I would enforce the rule if the batter was trying to hit the pitch and couldn't because now someone was put at a disadvantage.

Again, you have to take everything into consideration. It's great to debate it on here and go back and look at multiple replays, etc., but to be behind the plate with everything I listed above, a runner straight stealing home in a tight ball game, and 7000+ screaming on the play, you don't have much reaction time to figure out what the hell's going on much less worry about if the catcher got out there too soon. No one is going to react to that...even the best MLB umpires aren't going to react that quickly.

I used an example of being a cop in my calling strikes discussion so I'll use it again here:
I think everyone is familiar with the Andy Griffith episode where Barney writes Gomer a ticket for making a U-Turn and hilarity ensues with Gomer later making a citizens arrest on Barney for doing the same thing. Anyway, let's say you're a cop and you observe a driver make a U-Turn on an empty street (and let's apply it to our play)...
You have 3 things you can do:
1) Pull the car over and write the driver a ticket because he broke the law. (Call a balk/C.I. and enforce the rule as written in black and white)
2) Pull the car over and warn the driver about making a U-Turn. (Don't call the balk/C.I. but get in the catcher's ear about needing to stay back)
3) Take into consideration that there were no cars coming the other way and although an illegal act was committed by the driver, he didn't hinder or impede traffic, and choose to ignore it. (Recognize the batter wasn't trying to swing, understand the catcher didn't gain any advantage or put anyone at a disadvantage - because the pitch was so wild, and simply call the pitch a ball).

By the letter of the law you are well within your rights to give the driver a ticket. However, I think most police would opt for #2 or #3. And that's what I would do in this situation.

Also think about if you were that cop's supervisor. What you would rather defend when a complaint is filed? The fact he ticketed the driver for a violation on an empty street, or one of the other two? What do you think our umpiring supervisors would much rather defend? He enforced the rule as written and ejected 3-4 people, or he used common sense and fair play and while not enforcing the letter of the law, he did a pretty damn good job of handling a screwy situation.

I would never advocate to not call something because of how a coach/team/fans would react to it. If you see something, call something. I just don't think the catcher jumping out like that in that situation is going to be recognized or register in your mind immediately and call it as soon as it happens.

I've discussed this with Warren privately but I just don't like posting videos of umpires at any level missing (or perceived missing) calls (and I'm not saying this is the reason this video was posted, I'm just speaking in general). The videos I use at my clinic show umpires making correct calls, good mechanics, and in proper position. I think we all need to walk a mile in the shoes of an umpire who misses a call instead of posting a video and criticizing or speculating on why the call was missed. None of us are ever there there, we don't know what happened on the play, we don't know what the umpire saw or didn't see, yet we try to analyze it like our ###### doesn't stink. Everyone should have the opportunity to work a televised game and see themselves. I try not to criticize the LL regional and world series umpires because they are nervous being on national television. I have 2 DVD's of games I've worked on CBS College Sports. I can tell you I was nervous seeing those cameras out there. I could post a video from one of those games of a pitch I called a strike that was off the plate and low because my timing got fast. The bottom line is guys who work at that level are pretty damn good. I couldn't carry those guys jocks. 2 of them have worked international ball and the olympics. 1 was a AAA call up with about 100 games in the show.

Finally, if you knew how many private messages, e-mails or conversations I have with people who either post or lurk on here blowing guys up about things they say, you would never post again. I usually don't respond or if I do it's always defending you. I remember getting started and working up the ladder. Everyone umpires for different reasons. Some want to move up, some just want to give back to the game they love. That's what it's about. If you think you're better than the guys below you I think you're an asshole. We need guys working at every level and covering those youth games so we can get out on the road and chase our dreams. So, please don't take any of my comments personally. I post on here because Warren asked me to since my clinic is affiliated with this website. Hopefully you can learn some things from what I post and occasionally get a laugh or two from me. That's how I run my clinics. I would just always ask that you not be a black and white rule book umpire, let the game call itself, insert yourself in there if/when needed and always enforce rules with common sense and fair play in mind.

[mbrown2097]

#21 MidAmUmp -- Appreciate what you bring to this site.  Also appreciate the discussion brought by videos (good and bad) because it makes me think!  I've learned a lot from this site and will continue to take the good with the bad.  Personally, I didn't think that the OP was an attack, rather an open ended question inspiring thought and discussion.  Of course, I've been wrong before so who knows.

[mstaylor]

I rarely criticize umpires because we don't know the whole story. I respect you above your knowledge. I also agree these guys are damn good or they wouldn't be on the game. We don't even know if they did or didn't call a CI. I mearly ask what do you do with the pitch. If you choose to just let the play stand, in this case the ball was high enough that a ball is easy. What of it was close and the elects not to swing?

I am perfectly able to discuss rulings without name calling, as are you. This had been discussed their years. One discussion years ago suggested just crossing a line through 7.07 because it should never be called. So now the question is, what would you advocate at a clinic if asked?

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[MidAmUmp]

@mbrown2097 - No, I don't think the video was posted to criticize the umpires.  I just wanted to put some perspective on it before the discussion got to "how can guys at that level miss something that bad" as other topics have reached.

 

@mstaylor - I don't think it should never be called.  Again, use common sense and fair play.  Always be thinking: Was someone put at a disadvantage?  Did someone gain an advantage?  If the answer is yes, then it's time to enforce.  If the answer is now, maybe we need to think about doing some preventive officiating or ignore.  Example: I could call obstruction on a SS when a runner rounds 2nd and is obstructed but has no intention to go 3rd; and then spend time trying to explain to a coach why I didn't send his runner to 3rd -OR- I could just tell the SS to get out of the way.

[grayhawk]

@MidAmUmp  I agree that in a pressure packed situation, actually seeing and processing everything is very difficult on a play like this.  Look at the play where obstruction was not called by U1 in the MLB game a couple of days ago.  One would think an MLB umpire would see that, but he didn't.

 

I know that common sense and fair play may indicate that on a wild pitch and the batter not making any attempt to swing that a no call may be the best choice.  However, on this play, F2 was out in front before F1 even released the pitch.  Seems to me that everything that happens after shouldn't really matter.  I know things happen so fast, especially at the D1 level compared to the levels I am calling, so again I am not criticizing - just keeping to the point of the thread which is to learn.

 

I know that if the OC came out to argue that the batter should be awarded first, he would have a legitimate beef.  I also know that if the pitch was caught and the runner tagged, then the defense gained a major advantage that the rules specifically try to prevent.

 

I like the big picture view that you provide in your insightful posts.  As a newer (been umpiring 5 years) umpire, it's something I need to always seek to understand better.