Asking for help mechanic?

[maineump]

I've seen the same play twice in the last 2 nights.

BU in C - R1 & R2

1st game - Ground ball to infield - BU not sure of the pulled foot at first and immediately goes to PU (looking up the line) for appeal - PU calls off base - runner safe. Argument by DHC.

2nd game - Ground ball to infield BU makes call of safe at first on DP ball, reason was for pulled foot. PU follows - (PU had foot on, but no appeal from BU) - Argument by DHC. BU was waiting for Def to appeal to PU.

 

There was an ejection in one of the games.

 

Looking for opinions on how you like to call it (or your protocol) as BU.

- Make the call and then ask on appeal? or

- Make the appeal first, to get the call right, if you are unsure of the pulled foot/swipe tag?

 

We are being told to make the call, then go for the appeal. So if....

- BU calls out and appeal says pulled foot, what do you do with the runners? What if BR leaves base for the dugout?

 

EDIT: at 10:40 -

In the first playt: The ground ball was to the 2B right, the play was 'expected' to go to 2B, but no time so he went to 1B.

I was doing the bases and had no view of the pulled foot, as I was expecting the play to 2B, but the 1B had a huge stretch to get to the ball. It was a bang-bang play at first. I admit that I was a little out of position, because the !B was stepping in my direction. I made a verbal safe call, but no physical and went immediately to my partner. My bad on the 'no safe signal'. My partner had a great view of the base and foot.

second play: I had the plate - my partner made the call. I had a good view of the foot/base as did the catcher. I was never asked for my opinion, and I am good with that - If asked I would have the out.

[OHUMP]

This is your call as BU make the call you see then if the coach makes an appeal go to your partner for help. 

[maven]

This is your call as BU make the call you see then if the coach makes an appeal go to your partner for help. 

 

This used to be the rule. I'm fairly old school and usually use this rule. With a read step I can usually get an angle on that foot.

 

A new mechanic permits BU to check with PU first (only for certain questions, and only when PU is in a position to help), then make a call. Pre-game with your partner.

 

In the OP, the second BU was incorrect to wait for the defense to ask his partner. It's his call, the defense should not be going to his partner at all.

[MidAmUmp]

Assume all ground balls on the infield are going to first, bust your ass and get across the infield and into a better position/angle for the throw to 1st and you shouldn't need to ask for help.

[pnewton]

My advice is to pre-game this every single time.  I believe the base guy should make the call as he sees it and the plate guy can give a subtle "I saw that different" signal when the coach comes out to argue so you already know what your partner has to say.  I don't like going to the plate guy before a call gets made because you can really be putting him on the spot if he didn't hustle, didn't get a good look, was looking at third, anything that might prevent him from knowing what happened. 

[Scratch Franzeo]

Make the call. If the coach appeals, then go to your partner.

[mstaylor]

The PU needs to watching third on that call, he should have anything for the BU. 

[maineump]

The PU needs to watching third on that call, he should have anything for the BU. 

The PU needs to stay home, because of the runner on 3B. The BU is supposed to have all calls in the infield right? So, can't the PU still have a view of the 1B line and still take a look at 3B?

[24sdad]

Assume all ground balls on the infield are going to first, bust your ass and get across the infield and into a better position/angle for the throw to 1st and you shouldn't need to ask for help.

Spot on with getting yourself into position to make your calls.  Too often B or C is glued to B or C throughout entire plays.  Read the play develop and square to the ball, judge the quality of the throw(s) and adjust accordingly to put yourself in the proper position to see the pulled foot.  There are those occasions where you do everything you should but for some reason just missed the pulled foot.  Its still BU's call so make the best call you can.  R1/R2, as PU I am moving to the area of (some what deep) 1BLX so I can see R2's touch at third as well as being in position to help BU's call at first if needed.

[maineump]

I thought I had gotten to the proper place, I was working around the mound and rotated towards 1B on the play, but still couldn't be 100% on my call. I think I got 'trapped' into thinking that the play was gong to 2B, as that was the way the ball was taking the play.

 It was my bad by not giving the physical safe sign before going to my partner.

I definately learned on this call and have already thought about adjustments for my positioning for this call.

I am still stuck in the old ways of - going to the appeal before making the call.

Assume all ground balls on the infield are going to first, bust your ass and get across the infield and into a better position/angle for the throw to 1st and you shouldn't need to ask for help.

Spot on with getting yourself into position to make your calls.  Too often B or C is glued to B or C throughout entire plays.  Read the play develop and square to the ball, judge the quality of the throw(s) and adjust accordingly to put yourself in the proper position to see the pulled foot.  There are those occasions where you do everything you should but for some reason just missed the pulled foot.  Its still BU's call so make the best call you can.  R1/R2, as PU I am moving to the area of (some what deep) 1BLX so I can see R2's touch at third as well as being in position to help BU's call at first if needed.

 

[Forest Ump]

I'm surprised no one has chirped in that this is not an appeal play.

 

 

As a BU, make your own calls unless you want to give half of your game fee to the PU.

 

 

With that said if you really think you need to get help and you are not just trying to appease the coach, you should first ask the coach to clarify exactly what he wants you to get help on. Second, you need to tell him that you will get help with the call but he must go back to his position and that he cannot continue to argue the call after a decision has been rendered. If he does, he may be ejected from the game. If you change the call, both you and the PU must go over to the other coach and explain your decision. The PU should also keep an eye on the bench to make sure no one starts getting out of hand. Do it like this and you will less likely have an ejection.

 

 

Bottom line is don't rely on the PU to make your calls.

[KLAH316]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDokOdL0e2I

[kylejt]

I'm guessing we're talking about the 60' field. When you're in C, behidg F6, many times you've got not way to get any sort of angle, or get closer for a play at first. IMO, this is the toughest routine call on any field.

 

Plus, you don't know where F6 is goint to throw to.

 

Yeah, I get own your call, and try to adhear to it as much as possible. But sometimes you've got zero view of a pulled foot from way back there.

 

So then there's the question of procedure. Do you go right away, or wait for the manager to ask? To me, it really depends on who I'm working with. Unless it's someone I fully trust, and even then I'll glance over to see if they're looking down the line, I won't go to them first. There might be a handful of guys I trust to go to right away. It's best if you can go right away, as it keeps the ball live, and the play in motion.

[maineump]

I'm guessing we're talking about the 60' field. When you're in C, behidg F6, many times you've got not way to get any sort of angle, or get closer for a play at first. IMO, this is the toughest routine call on any field.

 

Plus, you don't know where F6 is goint to throw to.

 

Yeah, I get own your call, and try to adhear to it as much as possible. But sometimes you've got zero view of a pulled foot from way back there.

 

So then there's the question of procedure. Do you go right away, or wait for the manager to ask? To me, it really depends on who I'm working with. Unless it's someone I fully trust, and even then I'll glance over to see if they're looking down the line, I won't go to them first. There might be a handful of guys I trust to go to right away. It's best if you can go right away, as it keeps the ball live, and the play in motion.

90' inside - went to the mound on the hit and just didn't rotate far enough towards first base.

That was sort of my OP - Do we go right away? From what I am seeing here, it is make the call, then if unsure go to partner. Either way I called this, we had an arguement. Very tight game - 9th inning. My limited view was the 1B looked off the bag (can't call the out because I wasn't sure there was one). I wanted to get the call right for the players.

1B coach had a great look at the player off the base - defensive coach got ejected. Not for asking the question, but for the way he got to my partner on the call. Looked like a yard sale when he was done.

[noumpere]

The general topic has been discussed many times and its always a 50-50 split on making the call first or asking for help first.  I'm in the make the call first camp but if my partner comes to me I try to be ready, consistent with my other responsibilities.

 

and I agree with MidAm ump that if you work hard you can minimize the times you need to go to 1 in 5 seasons or so (and now that I've said that I'll have it three times this weekend).

[MidAmUmp]

I'll expand a little on my first response...

As the base umpire you must make a call.  I'm not trying to sound harsh but going to your partner is unacceptable.  It's essentially throwing your partner under the bus.

 

Think about throwing angles, get across the infield and make a call - call the runner out or safe, but make a call.  The plate umpire has other responsibilities.  The last thing you want to do is immediately kick a call to your partner and find out he's watching something else.

 

If the coach doesn't like your call, he should come out and let you know about it.  Then is when you could get help.  Get him off the field and get together with your partner (don't yell at him from across the field) to see if he has anything different.  It's a whole lot easier to find out in a private conversation that he was watching the touch at 3rd or the good looking momma in the 2nd row wearing a sun dress and didn't see the play at 1st, than to point at the plate umpire and yell "What do you have?" only to have him yell back "I was watching the runner from 2nd touch 3rd."  In that scenario you're screwed.  You haven't made a call and he can't help you.

[BuckeyeMike]

My association is in the camp of "Ask first, then call it"......and I've used this mechanic twice this year with success (luckily PU was watching).  However, there are some very good arguements that are making me question that mechanic.  I CAN say that when i'm PU in this situation, I am always watching down the 1BL for a pulled foot or swipe tag.  Just not sure my partners can say the same, which is where the problems arise. 

 

I guess when in Rome.......... 

I'll do it like my association wants it done, but I'm dreading the day when my P can't help me and I'm left alone on that island with an indigenous man-eating HC.  lol

[mstaylor]

If you have no help then you simply call the out. If the timing is right and you only think he may have pulled, your partner can't say them he is out. Is you saw the pull but issue of the timing, safe.

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[Sayhey]

What about eye contact?

[carolinablue]

What I never understood about asking first is that if the BU is in B or C then that means there are other runners. What are they doing while the call at 1B is in limbo, especially with 2 outs. It may only take a couple of seconds to ask and then get an answer but in baseball that can be an eternity.

[boyinr]

A partner once said to me to after the plate meeting "you make your calls, I'll make my calls and we'll talk if we need to". That's my feelings.

[CentralOhioUmp30]

If you have no help then you simply call the out. If the timing is right and you only think he may have pulled, your partner can't say them he is out. Is you saw the pull but issue of the timing, safe.

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,

I had basically this same play in a JV game last week.  I'm in B with R1.  Ball hit to F6, who bobbles, but his throw ultimately beats B/R at 1st.  The throw takes F3 off the bag, but I was 51/49 sure he stayed on long enough to catch the ball.  I call him out and immediately go to my partner who clearly saw F3 leave the bag early, so I overturn my call.  VTC comes out to question PU (mainly because after every batted ball he would move six feet to his left and stay there, but that's a grievance for a different day), but after the game he applauds us on our teamwork.

 

This turned out to be a game I was being evaluated.  Evaluator thought I should have been able to see the pulled foot (and I can live with that), but we got the call right and that's what's most important to me. 

[MidAmUmp]

I agree with your evaluator that you should have seen the pulled foot.  Think about throwing lanes & angles (throw from SS, how is 1B going to stretch?) and get into a position where you can see that stretch.  See other things - the foot (did he fish for the base as he stretched or after he caught the ball?), the base (did it have any give to it after he caught the ball that would indicate he stayed on the base?), and listen (not necessarily on this play, but for tag plays you need to use your ears as much as your eyes). 

 

Don't make a call and then immediately ask for help from your partner.  Get in the best position and make your call based on all the info you have.  If a team disagrees with your call and requests you get help, then if you're not 100% sure you could get with your partner.

 

Making a call then immediately asking for help without solicitation is just like not making a call and kicking it to your partner.