24sdad

When PU moved from 3BLX to 1BLX looks like he ALMOST put himself in a position to be straight lined on the second tag attempt. I wonder what F2 was complaining about when he pointed to the area of the second tag attempt? Since he missed him by about a foot, I am guessing it was the distance R2 moved to his right to avoid the tag? I know this is everyday stuff for these guys, but a good reminder for us...initial missed tag and missed touch of home equals no call. @Haid D' Salaami would you give a safe signal on the second missed tag (don't know what PU did as he moves out of view) as R2 was a considerable distance from the plate?

We have a DDB CI. Shouldn't we be killing this play as soon as B/R is out? Same sitch except B/R hits a ground ball to F3. We let the DDB CI play out until F3 steps on first base to record the out on B/R. As soon as B/R is out, we kill it and deal with the CI as mentioned by other posts above. With that in mind, in the OP as soon as we determine we have an IFF the B/R is out. Shouldn't we be killing the play at that point?

This is not in the fed book. Well, its on page 37 on my 2013 NFHS rule book and what I posted above in a cut and paste from the 2014 NFHS rule book off Aribiter, so I don't know what to tell you.

5-1-2 ART. 2 . . . It is a delayed dead ball when: a. there is interference by a batter (Exception 7-3-5 Penalty), 1. When the batter interferes with the catcher attempting to play on a runner, if an out does not result at the end of the catcher's throw, the ball shall become dead immediately.

Thanks @Fittske24, this makes more sense. Appreciate you responding. @Jimurray - don't know if you read the entire article, but that is not what I take away from it. To me it appears that is the mechanic the author recommends for taking all plays at first. If you get a chance, read it. Maybe I am missing something.

This is what Fittske24 said in this thread:5-2-3 DP????? Fittske24, on 11 Jun 2013 - 08:54 AM, said: "Can't always hear both ball in glove and foot on bag when there is a crowd that big. You might can hear one or the other but not both.... Maybe could have taken a more aggressive angle to the throw coming from the catcher. May have given him a better angle to see ball in glove then listen for the foot." And I asked this: "Why is this better than seeing the foot hit the bag and hear the ball hit the mitt and then verifying that the ball is in the mitt? Is this what PBUC is teaching?" And Jocko said this: "If Fittske says it.....WRITE IT DOWN. Don't ask why." So the Referee author and Fittske 24 both might have been trained that way in the past. I just looked at the post and Fittske only gives the above as to why this mechanic could be used. I am a little confused by what he is getting at. If the crowd noise is too loud to hear both the ball popping the glove and a foot hitting the bag, you should choose the option that gives off the least amount of sound? There has to be more to his reasoning and am hoping he elaborates.

@Jimurray @Fittske24 As he is one of the more respected members here, I would love to hear Fittske24's thoughts on using this mechanic.

Or B/R beats the throw but misses first base. You are watching for F3's catch and probably only seeing B/R's upper body. Kind of rough calling out B/R on proper appeal based on lack of sound as opposed to actually seeing the miss.

Just received the December issue of Referee Mag. On page 62 the author, David Uyl (10 years MiLB, 3 years D1) discusses the correct mechanic for the base umpire on a ground ball and throw to first base: "Using your eyes properly means that you see the ball enter the glove of the first baseman. Watch that happen as you listen for the runner's foot to hit first base." Uyl goes on to say to ensure secure possession by F3 means "keeping your eyes on the ball..." Is anyone using this mechanic? My only exposure was at Evans and this mechanic was never discussed. They taught read the throw, watch the base for a touch by B/R and possible pulled foot by F3 while listening for the "pop" of the catch by F3. Prior to making your out call, bring your eyes up to F3's glove to determine secure possession. I know Referee has a rep for occasionally printing questionable information, but is this a mechanic widely used?

@MidAmUmp Your posts are a valuable resource and much needed on this forum. I agree with what you had to say...don't sweat the stuff you can't control and continue to post your high level insights. Those who pay attention to it are better umpires for it.

I understand its 10u, but teach the F2's you work with to hand you baseballs, not toss them to you.

Going to go out on a limb here and guess MAU is referring to, "Yea I have OBS, but more importantly did you see BU's new super duper Chuck Taylor Converse base shoes? Where can I get a pair?" But I could be mistaken.

Manny, come on. Anyone can clearly see B/R pull up (slowing his forward progress) well before any contact and F1 possessing the ball.

"There is no hinderance there. You cannot have hinderance unless you have contact." You don't really believe this do you?

I read it, I just disagree with your sequence of events. And it's no biggie if we disagree. We see different things...it happens.

AT BEST, the collision occurred as F1 slid in front of B/R and grabbed the ball. There was no attempt to tag or throw out B/R until well after the collision. But I am not convinced F1 even had control of the ball when the collision occurred. We will just have to disagree on that point. I watched it one time before my initial post. At that time, I do not believe F1 clearly reestablished his fielding position prior to the collision and was not attempting a tag or throw prior to the collision. Now, if it was a little clearer and I was able to slow it down, maybe (maybe not) I would agree with you. But on first view my initial, immediate reaction is OBS and would be easily defended.

If I am reading this correctly, I have an out on R1 for interference. Batted ball passes F1 (if F1 touched it, play the bounce), if not and if the batted ball has not passed any other infielders when it contacted R1, then time, R1 is out and award B/R first base. R1 was hit by a fair batted ball before it passed an infielder other than the pitcher. FED 8-4-2 Any runner is out when he: is contacted by a fair batted ball before it touches an infielder, or after it passes any infielder, except the pitcher, and the umpire is convinced that another infielder has a play (5-1-1f, 6-1-5). If a runner is touching his base when he is hit by an infield fly, he is not out, but the batter is out by the infield fly rule. The ball is dead, even in the exception. If a runner is hit by an infield fly when he is not touching his base, both he and the batter are out. in the original question, the batted ball hit the runner after he is safely on the bag and none of the infielders could've have made a play on the ball….I got nothing both runners safe Omega, R1 and left handed batter hits a shot to the 3/4 hole that hits R1 while he is attempting to advance. The ball had not passed F3 or F4, but neither had a chance to field the ball as it was hit too hard. Do you have an out on R1? Also, standing on the bag while hit (except with IFF) by a batted ball is not a safe haven.

I have OBS on F1. He had to move a considerable distance to the misplayed ball and was not in the immediate act of making a play on B/R (such as F4 dropping a ground ball at his feet and as he reaches to pick it up, R1 runs into him). In FED I have a DDB and once F1 throws out B/R at first, call time and award B/R first as well as awarding other runners the bases they would have reached absent of the OBS. In OBR I believe it is an immediate dead ball as B/R was OBS prior to reaching first base.

If I am reading this correctly, I have an out on R1 for interference. Batted ball passes F1 (if F1 touched it, play the bounce), if not and if the batted ball has not passed any other infielders when it contacted R1, then time, R1 is out and award B/R first base. R1 was hit by a fair batted ball before it passed an infielder other than the pitcher. FED 8-4-2 Any runner is out when he: is contacted by a fair batted ball before it touches an infielder, or after it passes any infielder, except the pitcher, and the umpire is convinced that another infielder has a play (5-1-1f, 6-1-5). If a runner is touching his base when he is hit by an infield fly, he is not out, but the batter is out by the infield fly rule. The ball is dead, even in the exception. If a runner is hit by an infield fly when he is not touching his base, both he and the batter are out.

Good stuff right here and applicable to everything we do between the lines.

Don't know what your one man experience is, but it is generally accepted on long distance calls if the ball beats the runner and the tag is down, get the out. Like grayhawk said, get out from behind the plate and hustle. RE: strike zone - its winter HS ball...STRIKES!

Caught the tail end of last nights game. Both announcers had a lot of nice things to say about the crew considering they were the guinea pigs for IR.

Nothing in 6.1.1-6.1.3 regarding breaking of the hands once F1 disengages is illegal. Now OBR has this.."Rule 8.01 Comment: Pitchers may disengage the rubber after taking their signs but may not step quickly onto the rubber and pitch. This may be judged a quick pitch by the umpire. When the pitcher disengages the rubber, he must drop his hands to his sides. " But OBR does not list a penalty for it, similar to taking signs off the rubber.. I believe it is more intended to prevent F1 from re-engaging the rubber with his hands together, and thus preventing an attempt to quick pitch. So in OBR, at some point after disengaging, F1 must separate his hands before re-engaging.

All good answers, and I think BT_Blue and mstaylor touched on it re FED. In FED all OBS is delayed dead ball and if you call OBS, the obstructed runner is always awarded the next base, however you could protect the runner further than that next base. Example - R2 and a base hit to left. As R2 advances toward 3rd he is obstructed by F6. R2 regains his footing/balance, touches third and advances home where he is thrown out on a very close play. Even though R2 is automatically awarded the next base (3rd) if you believe F6's OBS prevented R2 from scoring, you can protect R2 all the way to home and allow the run. By the same rationale, if R2 is half way between third and home when F2 receives the throw and it is obvious R2 would have been out OBS or not, call him out - as you only had R2 (automatically) protected to 3rd. Type "B" OBS in other codes - let it play out and award/protect the obstructed runner to the base you judge he would have reached absent the OBS. Example - routine base hit to F8. B/R rounds first at about the same time as F6 receives the throw from F8. As B/R rounds first, he collides with F3 just past first base as you point and call OBS. In your judgment there is no way B/R could safely advance to second and had no intention of advancing. After play relaxes, leave B/R at first, as well as protecting B/R back into first should there be a play on him there due to the OBS. (if this same sitch occurs in FED, B/R is awarded 2nd - FED has removed your judgment). Also, runners other than the obstructed runner are typically unaffected by the OBS. Example - R1 and batter gets a base hit to F9. As R1 rounds second he is obstructed by F6 and eventually thrown out at 3rd. B/R stayed on first base watching what happened. In FED and type "B" codes it has already been explained re R1. B/R is unaffected by OBS on R1 and is left where he is. Same sitch and F9 bobbles the ball causing B/R to attempt to advance to 2nd. As B/R nears 2nd, he sees R1 has been knocked down during OBS with F6 and instead of advancing, R1 crawls back to 2nd. This causes B/R to retreat to first. In all codes you will probably move R1 to third (automatic in FED) and probably move B/R to second (your judgment in all codes). I recall this sitch occurring in a MLB game this year or last, and the crew did not move B/R to second. So remember, it is your judgment as to the placement of non-obstructed runners.

Agree with noumpere. If the first appeal would have went to 2nd (two outs) then to first (3rd out) no runs would have scored. However, since the first appeal went to first, it in effect made the second appeal at second a "time play" allowing the runs to score.