Speaking of the Gerry Davis Stance...

[yawetag]

I dont I set up in the slot and use the GD hands on my knees.

If your not is the slot, you are not int he right position to see pitches... where are you set up at?

His grammar sucks. It should have said: I don't. I set up in the slot and use the GD, with my hands on my knees.

[kylejt]

That's why you don't put weight on your hands. It locks the arms, and puts pressure on that connection. The arm couldn't move backwards on the blow, and took all the energy.

Fellas, it's a bad stance for preventing injuries like this, which are quite common. Plus his arm was on the other side of the catcher. You'd think he would know better after all these years.

Your hands should be behind your thighs, with your elbows pointed toward the backstop. That leaves your bones less exposed, and your arms able to move backwards on the blow. Gerry wouldn't have that goose egg over the bone if he had his hands rotated properly.

I notice Jerry isn't wearing one of his Davishields out there.

I disagree with the highlighted.

How do you lock in? How do you retain a consistent head height without locking in?

Face it, your arms, hands and thighs all get hit every once in a while. What's the big deal? If you're that worried about getting hit, try soccer or something.

I drop in at the appropriate height pretty easily, thank you. I vary the height per batter, with the different width of my stance.

I see too many umpires with their arms locked, and fingers over their shinguards. If you need to do this to steady yourself, fine. Me, I'm pretty athletic, and can get by without doing that.

We all understand that we're going to to plunked out there from time to time. Me, I'm just trying to minimize bone shots. A crushed finger over a shin guard, or an exposed, locked elbow or forearm are easily preventable with a small adjustment in your stance.

The shot that umpire took to the forearm was easily preventable by a number of ways. First was his idiotic position. His arm was on the opposite side of the catcher. Duh. Next was putting weight on his arm. loading it with pressure. And lastly was rotating his radius toward the pitcher. All easily preventable, without compromising consistancy.

[catsbackr]

That's why you don't put weight on your hands. It locks the arms, and puts pressure on that connection. The arm couldn't move backwards on the blow, and took all the energy.

Fellas, it's a bad stance for preventing injuries like this, which are quite common. Plus his arm was on the other side of the catcher. You'd think he would know better after all these years.

Your hands should be behind your thighs, with your elbows pointed toward the backstop. That leaves your bones less exposed, and your arms able to move backwards on the blow. Gerry wouldn't have that goose egg over the bone if he had his hands rotated properly.

I notice Jerry isn't wearing one of his Davishields out there.

I disagree with the highlighted.

How do you lock in? How do you retain a consistent head height without locking in?

Face it, your arms, hands and thighs all get hit every once in a while. What's the big deal? If you're that worried about getting hit, try soccer or something.

I drop in at the appropriate height pretty easily, thank you. I vary the height per batter, with the different width of my stance.

I see too many umpires with their arms locked, and fingers over their shinguards. If you need to do this to steady yourself, fine. Me, I'm pretty athletic, and can get by without doing that.

We all understand that we're going to to plunked out there from time to time. Me, I'm just trying to minimize bone shots. A crushed finger over a shin guard, or an exposed, locked elbow or forearm are easily preventable with a small adjustment in your stance.

The shot that umpire took to the forearm was easily preventable by a number of ways. First was his idiotic position. His arm was on the opposite side of the catcher. Duh. Next was putting weight on his arm. loading it with pressure. And lastly was rotating his radius toward the pitcher. All easily preventable, without compromising consistancy.

If you don't lock in, somehow, you do not have a consistent head height, period.

Your legs are going to get tired, etc. and in the 8th or 9th inning, there is no way your head is where you started the game.

Work the way you work, but if you don't lock, you are fooling yourself about having a consistent head height throughout the game.

[kylejt]

Well, you're right, I don't have a consistant head height because it varies by the batter. Again, I'm still pretty athletic, but maybe twenty years from now I might change things up.

I don't get tired during the game, but if you do feel free to rest your hands on your knees. Many older MLB umpires do the same, so I guess it's okay. (just don't put your fingers over your shinguards, that's just stupid)

Watch Timmy Mac lock in, without bracing himself. Just a straight down sit (after years of working from a knee), He's pretty consistant. Slow, but consistant.

[noumpere]

I see too many umpires with their arms locked, and fingers over their shinguards.

I agree that I see too many umpires like this but it doesnt need to be so. You can put your hands on your lower thigh without locking your elbows. And your fingers should be to the outside and your thumb to the inside and you can even hide your hand a little under the shin guard. And you should rotate your arms so the inside of your elbows faces the pitcher so that if your arm is hit your arm will hinge not break.

[Guest]

That's why you don't put weight on your hands. It locks the arms, and puts pressure on that connection. The arm couldn't move backwards on the blow, and took all the energy.

Fellas, it's a bad stance for preventing injuries like this, which are quite common. Plus his arm was on the other side of the catcher. You'd think he would know better after all these years.

Your hands should be behind your thighs, with your elbows pointed toward the backstop. That leaves your bones less exposed, and your arms able to move backwards on the blow. Gerry wouldn't have that goose egg over the bone if he had his hands rotated properly.

I notice Jerry isn't wearing one of his Davishields out there.

I disagree with the highlighted.

How do you lock in? How do you retain a consistent head height without locking in?

Face it, your arms, hands and thighs all get hit every once in a while. What's the big deal? If you're that worried about getting hit, try soccer or something.

Locked in translates to broken bones. If Gerry wasn't a bigger guy, there's less meat over that bone and we may be talking about some time off. Or, imagine if he got hit closer to the wrist...goodnight!

I use what sounds like an identical stance to Kyle. I work too many games with too many guys throwing 80+ to temp fate and advertise hands and forearms as targets.

I would love to work a game with some sort of pitch f/x evaluation just to see what's up because I rarely have anyone take issue with my strike zone.

Here's a thought: if you're concerned about being tired behind the plate by the 8th or 9th inning, maybe get into better physical condition? Seems to work just fine for me.

[mstaylor]

Many MLB umpires lock-in because that's what they are taught to do. Locked in had nothing to do with Gerry getting that big a swell on his arm, it has to do with getting hit by a ball traveling over 100MPH.

[Thunderheads]

Many MLB umpires lock-in because that's what they are taught to do. Locked in had nothing to do with Gerry getting that big a swell on his arm, it has to do with getting hit by a ball traveling over 100MPH.

....and , he was exposed to the outside of F2......

[catsbackr]

Lock in or not, it's up to the individual umpire I guess.

In our assocation, our evaluators look specifically for whether you're locked in or not. Upon seeing you are not, you are instructed to do so and dinged on that evaluation.

Do what you want to, work how you want to. I just think it looks terrible for any umpire to tuck his arms behind his legs or his back. Face it, the umpire looks scared of the ball. I'm not saying you are scared, but it sure looks that way.

And ump24, as far as your advice goes, work a few more decades and I will consider your advice. There are several on this site I will take advice from, you are not one of them.

[ukce1861]

Personally, I lock with one hand (behind the catcher) and tuck the other hand under my leg. What I find interesting about the adamant "lockers" is all the minor league guys I've seen lately drop to hands on knees and then, as the pitcher is delivering, tuck their hands under their legs...

[Guest]

Lock in or not, it's up to the individual umpire I guess.

In our assocation, our evaluators look specifically for whether you're locked in or not. Upon seeing you are not, you are instructed to do so and dinged on that evaluation.

Do what you want to, work how you want to. I just think it looks terrible for any umpire to tuck his arms behind his legs or his back. Face it, the umpire looks scared of the ball. I'm not saying you are scared, but it sure looks that way.

And ump24, as far as your advice goes, work a few more decades and I will consider your advice. There are several on this site I will take advice from, you are not one of them.

Classy.

I see you are one who believes there is a correlation between age and umpiring ability.

Hey Mazz, we should introduce him to Attridge. Oh wait, he's only a year older than me, so I guess you are already superior to him in all things umpiring knowledge. What a joke.

A good umpire evaluates all feedback given to him objectively, putting their ego aside, and then decides whether or not it is good advice. But who says I was speaking to you anyway?

But what do I know, I'm only 20 and must work no higher than t-ball...

[1dumbquestion]

Lock in or not, it's up to the individual umpire I guess.

In our assocation, our evaluators look specifically for whether you're locked in or not. Upon seeing you are not, you are instructed to do so and dinged on that evaluation.

Do what you want to, work how you want to. I just think it looks terrible for any umpire to tuck his arms behind his legs or his back. Face it, the umpire looks scared of the ball. I'm not saying you are scared, but it sure looks that way.

And ump24, as far as your advice goes, work a few more decades and I will consider your advice. There are several on this site I will take advice from, you are not one of them.

Ump24 has proven himself on more than one occasion to be a knowledgeable and capable umpire. The advice about getting in shape is easier said at a young age then after a few more decades of life, but his advice on umpiring is still sound. 1

[grayhawk]

I use the stance as described by Kyle and had 2 evaluations this season. Both commented that I had excellent head height and that I was not prone to flinching. Frankly, it's easy to lock in by tucking my hands under my thighs. I also never have had anyone tell me that I look afraid to get hit. I am with Kyle on that subject. I expect to take shots (and have the bruises to prove it), but I would prefer to minimze direct hits to bones. No method is perfect, but the GD is more likely to result in an injury that can take me off the field for a few weeks, IMO. I would say that the way I setup takes some extra endurance. I'm 44 and I work out 4 days/week and after a day of umpiring, I'm definitely ready for a cold one on the couch.

[mstaylor]

You can lock without locking your arms stiff. I scissor and put my left hand on the side of my leg, my right down my leg. If my left arm gets hit it will come off my leg and take some of the shock. They use to teach you to lay your slot arm on the from of your leg, broke an indicator that way.

As far as who to take advice from, I will listen to anybody and then discuss. In this case I think Ump_24 is dead wrong, doesn't mean he should be excluded in all catagories. We have a local kid that just came back from school and I call him to check what they are teaching at school now.

[catsbackr]

ump24,

Yes I do wholeheartedly believe there is a distinct correlation regarding age and umpiring ability. However, not all older umpires are good and not all young umpires are bad. It has been my experience that experience teaches, period. It's up to the individual umpire whether you actually learn or not. We have several Evans graduates in one of the assocations I work for and that in itself did not make them good umpires.

I don't know Attridge, so I don't know if he is a better umpire than me or not. Not sure what the point was with that. I never said I was better or worse than anyone.

A good umpire evaluates the feedback, good or bad, given to him by evaluators and assignors and adjusts his mechanics as instructed. I am evaluated twice per year, once in each association I work in. 1 high school and 1 college. The evaluators are all either pro school or Southern Camp graduates. I take their feedback and adjust my mechanics. They are who I work for.

I'm not going to beat a dead horse.

The 2 points I was trying to make were that the Gerry Davis stance had nothing to do with Gerry's injury and that putting your arms behind your legs or back doesn't allow you to lock and looks terrible. Nothing more.

[zm1283]

ump24,

Yes I do wholeheartedly believe there is a distinct correlation regarding age and umpiring ability. However, not all older umpires are good and not all young umpires are bad. It has been my experience that experience teaches, period. It's up to the individual umpire whether you actually learn or not. We have several Evans graduates in one of the assocations I work for and that in itself did not make them good umpires.

I don't know Attridge, so I don't know if he is a better umpire than me or not. Not sure what the point was with that. I never said I was better or worse than anyone.

A good umpire evaluates the feedback, good or bad, given to him by evaluators and assignors and adjusts his mechanics as instructed. I am evaluated twice per year, once in each association I work in. 1 high school and 1 college. The evaluators are all either pro school or Southern Camp graduates. I take their feedback and adjust my mechanics. They are who I work for.

I'm not going to beat a dead horse.

The 2 points I was trying to make were that the Gerry Davis stance had nothing to do with Gerry's injury and that putting your arms behind your legs or back doesn't allow you to lock and looks terrible. Nothing more.

I have seen numerous MLB, MiLB, and college umpires lock their hands behind their knees in their stance. I have been to clinics where D1 College World Series level umpires say that putting the hands behind the knees is okay. If it's acceptable to all of those people, it's okay in my book.

[kylejt]

You see more stances in the MLB than most LL parks. Some odd, some comical, some flat out dangerous (the fingers in the knee caps have me rooting for the baseball. I mean, how dumb is that?)

I don't take my cues from those guys anyways. They work one plate every 4-5 days, have the most accurate pitchers and best catchers in the world. Honestly, what a cushy job compared to what the most of us do. Did I mention they work four man every day?

[Guest]

This thread is getting a bit ridiculous.

If your evaluators / superiors feel the need that the only acceptable way to call balls and strikes is to be so locked in that a significant portion of your weight is resting on your hands and arms, which are unable to glance off your leg if they are hit, then you have no choice but to do so.

But, doing this also puts you at a much greater risk for significant injury - that's just simple physics. When you have a ball carrying that much force hitting you in a spot that is loaded with a substantial amount of weight, and that point of impact is unable to move, something has to give, and at some point, that will be your bone.

I'm not saying the GD stance is what got GD hurt - part of the job is wearing a pitch now and again, no matter what stance you use. But being set up in the GD is just asking for a severe injury on a shot that would be less troublesome if one's arms weren't locked so solidly.

It is entirely possible to lock in without loading one or both arms with a significant amount of weight, including having one's hands behind your knees. To not be locked in (like Dale Scott here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dale_Scott_on_May_11,_2008.jpg) will cause 99.5% of umpires to drift mid-pitch, which leads to strike zone inconsistencies. I am attempting to say I believe umpires should strive to lock in without putting themselves at risk for significant injury. I acknowledge I articulated that poorly.

Wanting to flinch when a pitch comes in is a natural human reaction and we need to train ourselves to beat that reaction. Fact of the matter is, some people can do this easier than others, and the GD stance is one way to beat that easily. On the other hand, the stance Kyle indicates he uses, as well as myself, others on this board, seems relatively prominent in the show : http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=13926143 ; http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=14011695 ; http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=14466533 ; http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=14485173 ; http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=14697971). One will notice that all of these guys (Guccione, Knight, Fairchild, Marquez, Carapazza) are all not that far removed from their PBUC training days, Carapazza of course still being MiLB. If it were so unacceptable / impossible to "lock in", why would so many young guys be employing this method of working the plate?

No good umpire would even remotely consider working a game with both hands behind their back.

Finally, with age comes experience, but experience does not necessarily come with skill. Satisfy your evaluators; when they tell you to adjust your mechanics one way or another, do so. But just because someone else somewhere else does it differently, does not make you right and them wrong. In the end, we are all judged by one thing and one thing only, and that is our ability to get a call right.

[Thunderheads]

While I agree this is getting ridiculous, it it venturing into interesting territory on 'locking in' .....

ump_24 .... how does this stance shown above in all these videos 'lock someone in' ?? (honest question)

[Jeff C.]

I started out using the GD stance and I found I was getting sore hands ( I have arthritis). I was shown the stance in 24's videos by a MiLB umpire at a clinic. I can't remember his name. The second I tried it, it felt "right". I can't explain how I know I'm locked in, I just know. I adjust accordingly with my leg width. If the stance is deemed incorrect by some, so be it. I have to protect myself as best I can since I have a family provide for. Besides, if it's good enough for those Big Boys in the videos, who am I to argue? I have been told that my head height is consistent throughout a game. So I must be doing something right:) Just my .02.

[Guest]

While I agree this is getting ridiculous, it it venturing into interesting territory on 'locking in' .....

ump_24 .... how does this stance shown above in all these videos 'lock someone in' ?? (honest question)

Mimic the stance and grab the back of your knees instead of having your hands just 'hang out' there. It's not as solid of a lock as the GD or scissors, but it should be enough to keep one from drifting down mid pitch. Chances are, if an umpire using this stance is continually drifting down, it's because they are bending their knees as the pitch is inbound, which can happen in any stance that I know of.

[mstaylor]

There is no wrong way, everyone have their version of how to do it. I teach to have some type of locking mechanism, that doesn't mean locking your hands on your knees. I suggest placing the hands on the side of your legs. That gives you the same height each time but allows a ball to take your arm with it instead of breaking it. Putting your hands behind you looks amateurish, dropping them straight down looks goofy. JMO

[Fittske24]

I think there is some confusion on what "locking-in" really means. I think some believe to be "locked in" one must "brace" or make stationary some part of your body (i.e. your arms your hands) in order not to move when assuming your plate stance. You do not have to physically brace yourself in some manor to become "locked-In". Locking in is all of the movements associated with producing a consistent and repeatable stance that allows the plate umpire to see every pitch the same way every time. The key words here are consistent and repeatable.This is a combination of head height, plate stance, distance from the catcher, and tracking of the baseball. what you do with your arms is just one part of the equation. I personally I tend to tuck my slot arm. But there are times where I will drop both of my arms near my thighs when I feel like I am more exposed due to the catcher working the outside corner leaving me vulnerable in the slot. The most important aspect of my lock is my legs. Regardless of what my hands or ams do my legs do the same thing every pitch which gives me a consistent lock. Like Ump_24 pointed bracing your arms as part of your lock helps to make your head height consistent but it also opens you up for possible injury. I will try to post pictures from different games that I have worked this year.....you will see that I have a consistent plate stance.

[JaxRolo]

I think there is some confusion on what "locking-in" really means. I think some believe to be "locked in" one must "brace" or make stationary some part of your body (i.e. your arms your hands) in order not to move when assuming your plate stance. You do not have to physically brace yourself in some manor to become "locked-In". Locking in is all of the movements associated with producing a consistent and repeatable stance that allows the plate umpire to see every pitch the same way every time. The key words here are consistent and repeatable.This is a combination of head height, plate stance, distance from the catcher, and tracking of the baseball. what you do with your arms is just one part of the equation. I personally I tend to tuck my slot arm. But there are times where I will drop both of my arms near my thighs when I feel like I am more exposed due to the catcher working the outside corner leaving me vulnerable in the slot. The most important aspect of my lock is my legs. Regardless of what my hands or ams do my legs do the same thing every pitch which gives me a consistent lock. Like Ump_24 pointed bracing your arms as part of your lock helps to make your head height consistent but it also opens you up for possible injury. I will try to post pictures from different games that I have worked this year.....you will see that I have a consistent plate stance.

Great post Ken. You made some very good points.

[rth54]

Ken, I just wanted to say that your insight re: the nature of locking in is one of the most articulate and helpful posts that I have had the opportunity to read on the board. Thank you so much for taking the time to post.

looks like i accidentally voted my own post down....lol