Coaches trying to Appeal Calls

[cwbaseball11]

I wasn't sure what to title this, but I am sure many of you run into the same issue. Coaches live under the assumption that having two or more umpires on a field means that they can appeal calls they do not like with the opposite umpire. In my opinion, its like the child who doesn't get their way with mom, so they try to go to dad. When I am the "offending umpire," I usually say, "I can check with my partner and see if he saw anything." We get together, and I am happy to reverse my call if he saw something that would warrant that.

I never reverse a call made by my partner, and my partners have never reversed a call made by me. We have a great association!

The problem I have is knowing what to say when I am the umpire to which they are trying to appeal. Here's what I have used so far:

• "That's his call, if you have a question you need to speak with him."
• "I didn't see anything that would change the call."
• "I cannot reverse calls" (This one is terrible. I shouldn't have used it, but I did in a moment of frustration)

My suspicion is that the first one is best, but I am open to other suggestions. I don't want to say anything that is going to throw my partner under the bus.

[Velho]

Speaking just for younger/rec level, when a Manager comes towards me after a call my partner made I make eye contact and give a small point (literally, I point) them to my partner. They almost always know they should not be coming to the other umpire. 
 

I also am proud of how the youth I’ve worked with will stand their ground when appropriate. Managers who think they can bully kids into deferring to an umpire that was 100ft away on a banger are ridiculous. 

[wolfe_man]

If a manager comes out and wants to ask a question, then make sure to call "time". I'm surprised how many guys just let them walk right out while the ball is still technically in play.  

I've learned to point them to my partner as @Velho suggests.  Words can many times be used against us or sound feeble, so the less said the better off we are is often true.   "It's his call on that, so you will need to direct any questions to him" or something like it works well.  

I would avoid giving them any information (I didn't see that, I'd make the same call if I were out there, etc.).   It's been said to let them talk first and explain what their question is before we start assuming they are out there to argue or complain.   He may not even be asking about that specific call, but about a missed base before it or something else. Before we start explaining why we're right, let them ask their question first, it may save us some headaches.

Yeah, you're right on the last one. I've said it in the past and immediately regretted it as it sounds terrible like you said. Lesson learned and never-to-be-used again in the future - core memory unlocked. 

[umpintosh]

53 minutes ago, cwbaseball11 said:

I never reverse a call made by my partner, and my partners have never reversed a call made by me. We have a great association!

When I first started umpiring, I made an out call at 1st, and almost as soon as I made it, I heard my partner scream "NO HE'S SAFE!" and overrode my call without talking to me. Although this was 6u Coach Pitch, it was infuriating at the time.

Also, this was 6u coach pitch playoffs, so 2 umpires instead of 1. 

[Velho]

10 minutes ago, umpintosh said:

6u Coach Pitch

🤨

[umpintosh]

2 minutes ago, Velho said:

🤨

im never doing it again

[BLWizzRanger]

1 hour ago, umpintosh said:

im never doing it again

The bigger question is did you grab any balks for the pitching dads?

[Velho]

1 hour ago, umpintosh said:

im never doing it again

My league has added 8U playoffs since I went through it with my son. Worse, the UIC I replaced this year let himself get roped into umpiring the Final (and an IF game!).

Same for 8U and 10U softball (which both have coach pitch).

Ugh. I feel very stuck. No more below that though as long as I'm on the Board.

[beerguy55]

23 hours ago, cwbaseball11 said:

Coaches live under the assumption that having two or more umpires on a field means that they can appeal calls they do not like with the opposite umpire.

Coming from a coach -This is not "appealing", this is "shopping".  Sometimes it's bullying.  Sometimes it's gaslighting.  Don't put up with it.

 

23 hours ago, cwbaseball11 said:

When I am the "offending umpire," I usually say, "I can check with my partner and see if he saw anything."

Only do this in scenarios where it's possible you had a terrible angle, or didn't see a dropped ball (or if your partner has given you a signal they have something).  If you're certain of the call own it - tell the coach you have everything you need, my call is my call...appeasing the request (even if you have no intention of changing the call) just encourages more shopping/bullying.

As an example, I had a play at first where F3 jumped in the air to make the catch, and BU, <15 feet away, called out. Our bench was on first base side, so I liked my view/angle - I went out and said, "They came off the base, can you ask your partner if he saw anything?" And he immediately said "yup, they came off the base and then came back down in time to beat the runner".   End of discussion.  No appeal.  No shopping.  He owned everything he saw.  I say another word at that point and now I'm "arguing" not "asking", because now we're nitpicking on the fraction of a second to when F3 touched the bag.  I don't care how right I believe I am at that point. He gets a "thumbs up" from me and I go back to the bench.  I also know now that this guy is confident in his game, and he's not going to be nudged by any coach.

Nothing is more frustrating as a coach to see the other coach doing this a dozen times a game, and getting away with it...and even getting a call or two go his way.  I once got a warning for telling an umpire to "own your call - you had the call right before you changed it, and it wasn't close; stop letting him bully you"...guess he didn't like me challenging his manhood.

23 hours ago, cwbaseball11 said:

"I cannot reverse calls" (This one is terrible. I shouldn't have used it, but I did in a moment of frustration)

It's not terrible - it's true.  There may be better options, but sometimes the direct approach is better.  Some coaches live under the fantasy that the PU has the power to overturn the BU's call...or the older ump can overturn the younger ump's call.  I have no issue with educating a coach that the ump who made the call owns the call, and that the power he believes you have doesn't exist. Unfortunately, some umpires live under the fantasy that they can overturn their partner's call, for whatever reason riddles their imagination.  (I do know that in some settings one ump is "the boss" - we can only hope their ego isn't so fragile they take that to heart)

*this may lead to a debate to whether or not an ump should have made a particular call at all - that's a different discussion, for you to have with your partner - but don't be surprised to hear a coach ask "who's call is that?" or "why are you making that call from there?"

I'll go with the first time an ump had to educate me about this process - "talk to the umpire who made the call".

 

 

[jimurrayalterego]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Coming from a coach -This is not "appealing", this is "shopping".  Sometimes it's bullying.  Sometimes it's gaslighting.  Don't put up with it.

 

Only do this in scenarios where it's possible you had a terrible angle, or didn't see a dropped ball (or if your partner has given you a signal they have something).  If you're certain of the call own it - tell the coach you have everything you need, my call is my call...appeasing the request (even if you have no intention of changing the call) just encourages more shopping/bullying.

As an example, I had a play at first where F3 jumped in the air to make the catch, and BU, <15 feet away, called out. Our bench was on first base side, so I liked my view/angle - I went out and said, "They came off the base, can you ask your partner if he saw anything?" And he immediately said "yup, they came off the base and then came back down in time to beat the runner".   End of discussion.  No appeal.  No shopping.  He owned everything he saw.  I say another word at that point and now I'm "arguing" not "asking", because now we're nitpicking on the fraction of a second to when F3 touched the bag.  I don't care how right I believe I am at that point. He gets a "thumbs up" from me and I go back to the bench.  I also know now that this guy is confident in his game, and he's not going to be nudged by any coach.

Nothing is more frustrating as a coach to see the other coach doing this a dozen times a game, and getting away with it...and even getting a call or two go his way.  I once got a warning for telling an umpire to "own your call - you had the call right before you changed it, and it wasn't close; stop letting him bully you"...guess he didn't like me challenging his manhood.

It's not terrible - it's true.  There may be better options, but sometimes the direct approach is better.  Some coaches live under the fantasy that the PU has the power to overturn the BU's call...or the older ump can overturn the younger ump's call.  I have no issue with educating a coach that the ump who made the call owns the call, and that the power he believes you have doesn't exist. Unfortunately, some umpires live under the fantasy that they can overturn their partner's call, for whatever reason riddles their imagination.  (I do know that in some settings one ump is "the boss" - we can only hope their ego isn't so fragile they take that to heart)

*this may lead to a debate to whether or not an ump should have made a particular call at all - that's a different discussion, for you to have with your partner - but don't be surprised to hear a coach ask "who's call is that?" or "why are you making that call from there?"

I'll go with the first time an ump had to educate me about this process - "talk to the umpire who made the call".

 

 

"appeasing the request (even if you have no intention of changing the call) just encourages more shopping/bullying." THIS. Appeasement is the easy way out for some of our cohorts. 

[MadMax]

23 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Some coaches live under the fantasy that the PU has the power to overturn the BU's call...

It's not quite a fantasy when it's codified in the d@mn3d NFHS Rulebook!! 

Rule 10, Sections 1 & 2. It takes a collaborative, contextual, analytical reading (ie. in a rules meeting or association) to fully grasp the dynamics. Unfortunately (for me), that stoooooopid Rule 10.1.9 is still there, and every association's old banner carriers cling to it – "It sez it right 'der! Navy! The shirt shall be navy! Navy's all ya need!". But otherwise, if left to one's own reading, the way Section 2 is phrased, the UIC gets heavily vested with sole authority. When that's read by a certain personality type, they inhale it and they begin to go on these power trips. I call it "the deification reading". 

It festers and proliferates thru games (usually solo, or with 2-man partners who conform/adapt/mutate to work with their personality type) without incisive, effective, antiseptic review. Sitting in the parking lot with 2 lawn chairs and a cracked open cooler, talking about "timing" ain't that review. In that setting, there's no one present to clean and correct maladies, mistakes, and misinterpretations before they take root. So that one day comes when our (usual) PU has a game with a new guy, or with a guy who hasn't learned the rules as thoroughly (we're all guilty in this to varying degrees), and a really intense play happens, and our PU "takes it (the call) and makes it (the call)". Cuz "someone had to." 

And without a partner to refute it (the taking / making, not the call itself), or discuss and correct it later, or absent a supervisor, mentor, or evaluator... that taking / making of the call takes root... 

... and then a war story begins. 

You wonder where coaches (begin to) believe that a PU can overrule / overturn a BU's call? They watched it happen. 

[Jimurray]

33 minutes ago, MadMax said:

It's not quite a fantasy when it's codified in the d@mn3d NFHS Rulebook!! 

Rule 10, Sections 1 & 2. It takes a collaborative, contextual, analytical reading (ie. in a rules meeting or association) to fully grasp the dynamics. Unfortunately (for me), that stoooooopid Rule 10.1.9 is still there, and every association's old banner carriers cling to it – "It sez it right 'der! Navy! The shirt shall be navy! Navy's all ya need!". But otherwise, if left to one's own reading, the way Section 2 is phrased, the UIC gets heavily vested with sole authority. When that's read by a certain personality type, they inhale it and they begin to go on these power trips. I call it "the deification reading". 

It festers and proliferates thru games (usually solo, or with 2-man partners who conform/adapt/mutate to work with their personality type) without incisive, effective, antiseptic review. Sitting in the parking lot with 2 lawn chairs and a cracked open cooler, talking about "timing" ain't that review. In that setting, there's no one present to clean and correct maladies, mistakes, and misinterpretations before they take root. So that one day comes when our (usual) PU has a game with a new guy, or with a guy who hasn't learned the rules as thoroughly (we're all guilty in this to varying degrees), and a really intense play happens, and our PU "takes it (the call) and makes it (the call)". Cuz "someone had to." 

And without a partner to refute it (the taking / making, not the call itself), or discuss and correct it later, or absent a supervisor, mentor, or evaluator... that taking / making of the call takes root... 

... and then a war story begins. 

You wonder where coaches (begin to) believe that a PU can overrule / overturn a BU's call? They watched it happen. 

I wouldn’t call that “codified”. 
What state associations don’t opt for other shirt colors?

[BigBlue4u]

I totally agree with immediately telling the coach, "Go to my partner, he made the call."  Two reasons.  First, you may not know the reason for your partner's call.  A pulled foot you did not see, a dropped ball you did not see, etc.  Second, the longer you talk, the more unverified information the coach can pass on to your partner.  e.g. "Your own partner told me he missed it." If you immediately direct the coach to talk with your partner, that can't happen. 

And, while I'm on the subject, unfortunately, you may be working with a partner you do not trust.  In this case, if your partner comes to you then goes to the coach, you go with your partner to the coach.  That way you can be sure your partner passes on to the coach what you actually said. In fact, it's probably a good idea to always go with your partner who goes to a coach after talking with you.

[love to ump]

so I read all the comments, and Big Blue4U hit it good...but I just can't get the idea of a 2 man crew for

6U coach pitch out of head!!!!