What's the count?

[tjthresh]

PU has 1-2.

Batter swings and misses the next pitch.

Home book has 1-2.

Visitors book matches what PU has.

BU don't know.

What do you do?

[SnareDrum]

Well, after the Death Glare to my BU... Three basic responses are going to show on this one: 1) I'm the PU and I'm right!! OUT! 2) The home book is the book of record, but I believe that's only for scoring and stats, the pitch count is only a "frill". 3) Since an out is on the line, AND if there is even the slightest doubt in my mind, get the bookkeepers together with PU and BU (if he dares to come near you now) and QUICKLY reconstruct the pitch sequence. This will prove the PU correct. Also, I can usually "recite" the sequence myself for most AB's, and I would do that here out loud, and if there was still confusion maybe have the get-together. A pow-wow like that is rarely necessary...

I'm leaning towards #1.

[tiger49]

PU has 1-2.

Batter swings and misses the next pitch.

Home book has 1-2.

Visitors book matches what PU has.

BU don't know.

What do you do?

PU is the only one that matters.

9.04 A(2)

[tjthresh]

PU has 1-2.

Batter swings and misses the next pitch.

Home book has 1-2.

Visitors book matches what PU has.

BU don't know.

What do you do?

PU is the only one that matters.

9.04 A(2)

Do you have a Fed reference?

[1dumbquestion]

PU has 1-2.

Batter swings and misses the next pitch.

Home book has 1-2.

Visitors book matches what PU has.

BU don't know.

What do you do?

the PU has the only count that counts. that being said if something strange (2 runners steal home on a wild pitch followed by a conference followed by a 30 minute rain delay) had happened during that at bat that may have caused me to loose the count I could see consulting with the home book. but normally the PU count stands. 1

[mtnump]

PU has 1-2.

Batter swings and misses the next pitch.

Home book has 1-2.

Visitors book matches what PU has.

BU don't know.

What do you do?

PU is the only one that matters.

9.04 A(2)

Do you have a Fed reference?

Fed is 10.2.1 "UIC ...shall call and count balls and strikes...and make all decisions on the batter."

[mazzamouth]

Well, after the Death Glare to my BU... Three basic responses are going to show on this one: 1) I'm the PU and I'm right!! OUT! 2) The home book is the book of record, but I believe that's only for scoring and stats, the pitch count is only a "frill". 3) Since an out is on the line, AND if there is even the slightest doubt in my mind, get the bookkeepers together with PU and BU (if he dares to come near you now) and QUICKLY reconstruct the pitch sequence. This will prove the PU correct. Also, I can usually "recite" the sequence myself for most AB's, and I would do that here out loud, and if there was still confusion maybe have the get-together. A pow-wow like that is rarely necessary...

I'm leaning towards #1.

why are you "glaring" at your BU? It is not his job to keep track of balls and strikes.. that is the PU job.

[JaxRolo]

Our association tells us not to worry about balls and strikes or even carry an indicator as a BU

[SnareDrum]

Well, after the Death Glare to my BU... Three basic responses are going to show on this one: 1) I'm the PU and I'm right!! OUT! 2) The home book is the book of record, but I believe that's only for scoring and stats, the pitch count is only a "frill". 3) Since an out is on the line, AND if there is even the slightest doubt in my mind, get the bookkeepers together with PU and BU (if he dares to come near you now) and QUICKLY reconstruct the pitch sequence. This will prove the PU correct. Also, I can usually "recite" the sequence myself for most AB's, and I would do that here out loud, and if there was still confusion maybe have the get-together. A pow-wow like that is rarely necessary...

I'm leaning towards #1.

why are you "glaring" at your BU? It is not his job to keep track of balls and strikes.. that is the PU job.

Yep. It's the PU's job. Perhaps I should have said "another hopeful glance so we can can get this game moving." I keep track when I'm on the bases for most games just in case... I don't think that I'm the only one that does... and to help keep more of my head in the game. At pregame, I'll ask (Unless I know for sure due to working with him often) if BU is keeping track, if something like this comes up. If he isn't then I won't ask for the assist. I get asked, or ask, about once or twice a year but it's usually due to a long delay or crazy action, or scorekeepers inquiry.

[Umpire in Chief]

PU is all that matters.

[24sdad]

Our association tells us not to worry about balls and strikes or even carry an indicator as a BU

Jax, ours tells us we must carry an indicator on the bases. And I do, right in my back pocket where it stays the entire game.

[gdpmumin]

Jax, ours tells us we must carry an indicator on the bases. And I do, right in my back pocket where it stays the entire game.

South Carolina Dixie Youth umpire manual states, "Each Umpire will USE a ball/strike indicator in each game." Written just like that. It's a little vague. Do they mean each Plate Umpire? Or every single Umpire who's on the field? I take it to mean every umpire on the field. But this is rarely the case in our league. One PU (actually our assignor and a friend of mine) I work with says, "I don't want you to carry an indicator. I don't even want it your pocket." He's also warned me that when we call games together and I'm PU and he's BU, if I go to him for a pitch count verification, he's flashing up 4-3. "That's your job," he says. Ok, so he doesn't want his BU to carry an indicator.

The PU I worked with last night told me he didn't care one way or the other. I did, and I used it. But I doubt I'll do it again unless specifically requested to do so by the PU I'm working with.

[Rich Ives]

Jax, ours tells us we must carry an indicator on the bases. And I do, right in my back pocket where it stays the entire game.

South Carolina Dixie Youth umpire manual states, "Each Umpire will USE a ball/strike indicator in each game." Written just like that. It's a little vague. Do they mean each Plate Umpire? Or every single Umpire who's on the field? I take it to mean every umpire on the field. But this is rarely the case in our league. One PU (actually our assignor and a friend of mine) I work with says, "I don't want you to carry an indicator. I don't even want it your pocket." He's also warned me that when we call games together and I'm PU and he's BU, if I go to him for a pitch count verification, he's flashing up 4-3. "That's your job," he says. Ok, so he doesn't want his BU to carry an indicator.

He's never lost the count? Wow! Must be really new huh? How do you suppose he'd find out the count if he lost track?

[scrounge]

So what's so bad about carrying an indicator on the bases anyway? Just curious, before coming here my only exposure was our local assoc, which encourages it. I find it helps keep me in the game, focused, and of service to players and coaches and occasionally a partner who ask. No big deal it seems.

[gdpmumin]

Jax, ours tells us we must carry an indicator on the bases. And I do, right in my back pocket where it stays the entire game.

South Carolina Dixie Youth umpire manual states, "Each Umpire will USE a ball/strike indicator in each game." Written just like that. It's a little vague. Do they mean each Plate Umpire? Or every single Umpire who's on the field? I take it to mean every umpire on the field. But this is rarely the case in our league. One PU (actually our assignor and a friend of mine) I work with says, "I don't want you to carry an indicator. I don't even want it your pocket." He's also warned me that when we call games together and I'm PU and he's BU, if I go to him for a pitch count verification, he's flashing up 4-3. "That's your job," he says. Ok, so he doesn't want his BU to carry an indicator.

He's never lost the count? Wow! Must be really new huh? How do you suppose he'd find out the count if he lost track?

Oh, no. He admits he has lost count on occasion. And when he does, whatever's on his indicator is the official count.

[Rich Ives]

Jax, ours tells us we must carry an indicator on the bases. And I do, right in my back pocket where it stays the entire game.

South Carolina Dixie Youth umpire manual states, "Each Umpire will USE a ball/strike indicator in each game." Written just like that. It's a little vague. Do they mean each Plate Umpire? Or every single Umpire who's on the field? I take it to mean every umpire on the field. But this is rarely the case in our league. One PU (actually our assignor and a friend of mine) I work with says, "I don't want you to carry an indicator. I don't even want it your pocket." He's also warned me that when we call games together and I'm PU and he's BU, if I go to him for a pitch count verification, he's flashing up 4-3. "That's your job," he says. Ok, so he doesn't want his BU to carry an indicator.

He's never lost the count? Wow! Must be really new huh? How do you suppose he'd find out the count if he lost track?

Oh, no. He admits he has lost count on occasion. And when he does, whatever's on his indicator is the official count.

So he knows it's wrong, and even if both coaches and the offical scorer agree on the correct count he won't adjust his thinking?

I think it's time for a new UIC or whatever his title is.

[yawetag]

I find it helps keep me in the game, focused,

I find the opposite myself. By not having the indicator, I stay more focused on the game.

[mstaylor]

So what's so bad about carrying an indicator on the bases anyway? Just curious, before coming here my only exposure was our local assoc, which encourages it. I find it helps keep me in the game, focused, and of service to players and coaches and occasionally a partner who ask. No big deal it seems.

For years all umpires carried indicators. As going to clinics became more prevelant, they teach not to use one so it fell out of vogue. Many clinics are taught by MiLB umpires and they are instructed not to use one, so that translates to," It's unprofessional" to use one. The problem is we don't have quality fields with good scorekeepers, we get a girlfriend or little brother of a player that screws the board on a regular basis. I personally carry one but I may only look at it two or three times a game, sometimes not at all. My policy when I instruct is do what you want. If you feel better carrying it, fine, if not then don't. I know some guys that don't use one on the plate, I don't like that but if they can do it I don't complain. I know guys that want to take their BU's indicator away, that's crap. Now if he wants to bury his head in it then he needs to learn how to use it correctly. The best thing to do is notch your wheels so you never look at it, you get the count by touch.

[jkumpire]

So what's so bad about carrying an indicator on the bases anyway? Just curious, before coming here my only exposure was our local assoc, which encourages it. I find it helps keep me in the game, focused, and of service to players and coaches and occasionally a partner who ask. No big deal it seems.

For years all umpires carried indicators. As going to clinics became more prevelant, they teach not to use one so it fell out of vogue. Many clinics are taught by MiLB umpires and they are instructed not to use one, so that translates to," It's unprofessional" to use one. The problem is we don't have quality fields with good scorekeepers, we get a girlfriend or little brother of a player that screws the board on a regular basis. I personally carry one but I may only look at it two or three times a game, sometimes not at all. My policy when I instruct is do what you want. If you feel better carrying it, fine, if not then don't. I know some guys that don't use one on the plate, I don't like that but if they can do it I don't complain. I know guys that want to take their BU's indicator away, that's crap. Now if he wants to bury his head in it then he needs to learn how to use it correctly. The best thing to do is notch your wheels so you never look at it, you get the count by touch.

I have found that usually when the count is lost, it is at the location of the "dead ball" waiting for the funeral, or trying to get home after it....

[kwiggie]

Well, after the Death Glare to my BU... Three basic responses are going to show on this one: 1) I'm the PU and I'm right!! OUT! 2) The home book is the book of record, but I believe that's only for scoring and stats, the pitch count is only a "frill". 3) Since an out is on the line, AND if there is even the slightest doubt in my mind, get the bookkeepers together with PU and BU (if he dares to come near you now) and QUICKLY reconstruct the pitch sequence. This will prove the PU correct. Also, I can usually "recite" the sequence myself for most AB's, and I would do that here out loud, and if there was still confusion maybe have the get-together. A pow-wow like that is rarely necessary...

I'm leaning towards #1.

why are you "glaring" at your BU? It is not his job to keep track of balls and strikes.. that is the PU job.

+1

I worked with a BU 2 seasons ago that took his indicator on the field and kept flashing the count after every pitch to the "infield, outfield, grandstands, score box, ME!" and I am pretty sure to the lacrosse game that was taking place within the same complexe. The only problem was that he was a pitch behind, he was so nervous to work his first varsity ball game (he said) that he forgot to "click" prior to flashing the count... every time. I tried to give him the benefit of the dout to correct his ways (hoping his jitters would settle down) but by the 3rd inning we met on the line between innings and I had to ask him to stop... you can't make this up!!!

[mstaylor]

I agree that the BU has no business flashing counts, outs or most anything else. As a BU, I don't even return most signals, I just nod my head.

[noumpere]

So what's so bad about carrying an indicator on the bases anyway? Just curious, before coming here my only exposure was our local assoc, which encourages it. I find it helps keep me in the game, focused, and of service to players and coaches and occasionally a partner who ask. No big deal it seems.

Its not that carrying it is bad its that using it incorrectly as in some later posts is bad and too many umpires who carry it use it incorrectly. If you dont carry it its harder to use it incorrectly. One story not mentioned is the umpire who looks directly at it to set it or to reset it and misses a play.

[Rich Ives]

As a manager/coach/player it is necessary to know the outs and count because it very often plays a role in pitch selection, possible plays, etc. (I got really annoyed at my players if they didn';t know )

How often have you "lost" the count?

Did you ever have a situation where it slowly dawned on you that you were the only one there that had it incorrect? Like everyone (including both coaches nodding) is yelling 2-2 while you have 3-1 in your head.

How did you recover (Who did you believe) - or did you?

[SnareDrum]

So what's so bad about carrying an indicator on the bases anyway? Just curious, before coming here my only exposure was our local assoc, which encourages it. I find it helps keep me in the game, focused, and of service to players and coaches and occasionally a partner who ask. No big deal it seems.

Its not that carrying it is bad its that using it incorrectly as in some later posts is bad and too many umpires who carry it use it incorrectly. If you dont carry it its harder to use it incorrectly. One story not mentioned is the umpire who looks directly at it to set it or to reset it and misses a play.

True! I work with a guy who brings the indicator up right in front of his nose after every pitch as if he's looking at an instant replay or something... when he's PU. He almost missed a play at the plate once because as the runner slid in he was staring and clicking.. I take a little professional pride with not looking at the dang thing unless absolutely I have to, and I usually know what it's going to show anyway. Since a lot of the scorekeepers I have to see border on horrible, I'll usually carry one on the bases. Usually I'll use it and sometimes not. (When I don't use it, I do find myself asking myself "what's the count". When I do have it, I seem to know it without looking. Strange.)

Also true as I read earlier that, no, the pros don't use them on the bases and it's trickled down that perhaps it's unprofessional to use one. Regardless, it seems to almost be personal preference or association edict. Yes, it's the PU's job. The PU has a lot of jobs, but every now and then he'll ask his partner for an assist. It's the PU's job to watch for a swing, but if he asks his partner "did he go?" does his BU say: "not my job!" If I'm BU and my partner asks for help, I'll help if I can whether I have my indicator or not. If I'm PU and the 4th pitch whizzes by, the DC calls time, and when we're ready to resume, I glance down ever so subtly and see 1-1 for whatever reason, I don't believe for a second I'm going to say "1 and 1... PLAY!" I just can't. I also would never as a BU tell my partner the wrong count on purpose. The point I guess is if you want to use an indicator as BU use it (unless ordered not to). if you don't want to use one, don't. If your PU partner loses the count and asks for help, it's up to you.

[archangel]

+1

Yes, to go along, we all have to follow our associations mandates. Fortunately, my assoc takes no stance regarding indicators.

I do find it odd that there are those who tell their members not to carry one on the bases. Why? True, mechanics/styles flow down from MLB, but the "looking unprofessional" reason just doesn't fly. If every high school had a working scoreboard and a paid professional scoreboard operator (MLB) , then sure, there's no reason for BU carrying.

But HS reality is volunteer/student operators, scoreboards that dont work or nonexistent, parent scorekeepers, coaches that are...well-------- none of which I would trust enough, nor should I anyway, as its my job. In this era of "get the call right", which I agree with 99% (depending on the sitch, of course), why wouldn't my partner and I want to insure we have the right count? AS PU, I sometimes only need to glance at mine maybe once per batter, as signaling the count every other pitch and having notched the indicators wheels, keeps me aware of the count.

As BU however, I carry one for 2 reasons:

1) The occasional (1 of every 5?) PU that signals me that he wants my count, as he's not sure. We are judged as a crew, if one makes a mistake, we both look bad. My reputation is important to me, so whats the better

choice- looking "unprofessional" for carrying one or for a sitch where PU is unsure of count and BU cant help, coaches complain, ect? No brainer.....

2) When the defense or a base coach asks the count. I refuse to say "ask the PU". I know the correct count, I answer, and it keeps the game flowing.(Yes, PU has the count, I know, but I put this under good game mngmnt, and it

works for me)

I teach my assoc class for new umpires, and I tell them to carry the indicators as a BU. We all can catch enough grief during a game. Why not limit the chances some by carrying a little plastic thing, hidden, in one hand?

Of course, this is just 1 opinion.....