Hidden Ball Trick ... legit or not?

[HumblePie]

R2 steals 3rd.

F5 fakes dropping ball into F1's glove.

F1 fakes like he's rubbing down the baseball in his glove and walks across the dirt surrounding the mound, within five feet of the rubber, but never stopping and walks off the other side.

Runner never bites. F5 gives up, shows the ball, and I call a balk and advance R3 to score.

The debate started after the game as to whether walking across the dirt qualifies as "taking a position."

One partner says yes.

One partner says no.

......................................

NFHS 6-2-5

It is also a balk if a runner or runners are on base and ...

the pitcher places the feet on or astride the pitcher's plate, or takes a position within approximately 5 ft of the pitcher's plate without having the ball.

[JonnyCat]

I would be inclined to interpret "takes a position" as being stopped in that position. Like standing there within 5' of the rubber, not just walking to a position on the other side.

I'm not sure I would have a balk here.

[HumblePie]

17 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

I would be inclined to interpret "takes a position" as being stopped in that position. Like standing there within 5' of the rubber, not just walking to a position on the other side.

I'm not sure I would have a balk here.

Does it matter at all that he was faking rubbing down the ball?

[MadMax]

5 hours ago, HumblePie said:

[NFHS Rule Citation] … takes a position… 

3 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

I would be inclined to interpret "takes a position" as being stopped in that position

Concur. Actively walking across or towards does not constitute “takes a place”… yet. If he’s still in motion, he hasn’t taken a place yet. To pitch, while coming set, he has to pause, with a discernible stop. If he’s still moving, he hasn’t paused… yet. 

3 hours ago, HumblePie said:

Does it matter at all that he was faking rubbing down the ball?

Nope. The rule doesn’t say anything about that. 

Besides, the Runner called his/their bluff, the F5 showed the olive 🫒 under the cup, sneaky attempt, but nothing came of it. What’s the problem? 

[JonnyCat]

15 hours ago, HumblePie said:

Does it matter at all that he was faking rubbing down the ball?

Agree with @MadMax

Nothing in the rules illegal about this.

[dumbdumb]

what if on the steal the pitcher had put the white rosin bag in his glove and goes to the 3 baseman for the fake ball handoff.  now everyone thinks he has the ball in his glove

[Velho]

12 hours ago, MadMax said:

16 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

I would be inclined to interpret "takes a position" as being stopped in that position

Concur. Actively walking across or towards does not constitute “takes a place”… yet. If he’s still in motion, he hasn’t taken a place yet.

Not arguing against, and sometimes you just have to umpire, but taking to the extremes to deeply explore since there is a reason NCAA wrote their rule as they did...

So a F1 with good acting skills doing a Family Circus route of walking onto and within the mound, including stepping over the rubber, but remaining in motion is all good? 

[JonnyCat]

20 minutes ago, dumbdumb said:

what if on the steal the pitcher had put the white rosin bag in his glove and goes to the 3 baseman for the fake ball handoff.  now everyone thinks he has the ball in his glove

Good question. Can you legally apply rosin to the glove, or is it just the hands? 6-2-1 g&note talk about rosin to the hands or fingers.

I seem to remember a rule or interp about the use of rosin, but I can't find it. Not sure what rule-set it was, or if it's just old age!

[JonnyCat]

8 minutes ago, Velho said:

So a F1 with good acting skills doing a Family Circus route of walking onto and within the mound, including stepping over the rubber, but remaining in motion is all good? 

I would think so. But any hesitation or him digging in, or any thing like that, I think I would balk it. It would have to be a fluid or very deliberate motion.

But I don't know. Good question.

[noumpere]

54 minutes ago, dumbdumb said:

what if on the steal the pitcher had put the white rosin bag in his glove and goes to the 3 baseman for the fake ball handoff.  now everyone thinks he has the ball in his glove

Pretty sure NCAA (and maybe OBR) has a specific interp that this is illegal during a hidden ball trick.

 

It's clearly at least a "don't do that" to apply rosin to other than the bare hand.

[jimurrayalterego]

12 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Pretty sure NCAA (and maybe OBR) has a specific interp that this is illegal.

 

12 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Pretty sure NCAA (and maybe OBR) has a specific interp that this is illegal.

2019 MLBUM

8-5-(m) "If the pitcher places the resin bag in his glove with, in the umpire’s judgment, the intent of deceiving the runner, it is a balk."

[JonnyCat]

29 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

 

2019 MLBUM

8-5-(m) "If the pitcher places the resin bag in his glove with, in the umpire’s judgment, the intent of deceiving the runner, it is a balk."

Okay, I thought I remembered that from somewhere. Thanks, I'm glad I'm not losing my mind, or maybe I am and just don't know it! 

[The Man in Blue]

I love calling a good hidden ball trick, and I love balking a poorly executed one even more.  That said, I fall on the side who believes the rule's intent is for a pitcher taking a stationary position.

HOWEVER . . . the NFHS rule reads "takes a position within approximately 5 ft of the pitcher's plate without having the ball."

What is the defense doing as fielders exit the dugout between innings?  The defense takes their positions.

 

Even with grammar on your side on this one, I am looking for a stationary positioning.

 

[Tog Gee]

I tell my pitchers don't touch the dirt at all with your feet if you don't have the ball.

What if the pitcher walked completely across the mound, without taking a position, yet steps a foot from the plate and kept going? He never stopped and "took a position" but he strode past the pitcher's plate. 

On a HBT, I could live with a balk call here if he walks onto the mound/dirt.

 

"Takes a position" could mean intentionally walks onto the dirt (as opposed to) remaining on the mound momentarily after F3 fakes a throw back to the pitcher? 

[BrainFreeze]

I agree that you could not call a balk if F1 is walking across the back of the mound; however, to me the key would be how close F1 gets to the pitcher's plate.  

If F1 is walking across the mound, walks up to the rubber and then keeps walking past it?  I have him within 5' and call a balk.   

Too much emphasis on "taking a position" imho.

[grayhawk]

This is why I love the NCAA rule. There is no ambiguity. He's either touching the dirt, or he's not. I understand HS can't use the same standard since some fields might be all dirt, but since that's the case, they should use the OBR rule being on or astride the rubber.

This "taking a position" crap is ridiculous.

[jimurrayalterego]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

This is why I love the NCAA rule. There is no ambiguity. He's either touching the dirt, or he's not. I understand HS can't use the same standard since some fields might be all dirt, but since that's the case, they should use the OBR rule being on or astride the rubber.

This "taking a position" crap is ridiculous.

It is ridiculous and runs the risk of literal umpiring which I hope @Tog Gee hasn't run afoul of due to his caution to his pitchers. OBR doesn't care if the HBT is at play and balks any on or astride although we all wouldn't care unless a HBT was afoot. NCAA adds the HBT attempt to call their balk. A literal ump would believe FED doesn't want the pitcher to be without the ball at any time within 5 feet of the rubber. I haven't had to convince anyone I trained that if a pitcher finished his pitch and was within 5 feet of the rubber without the catcher having thrown back the ball, or the fielders not yet returning the ball, that it was not a balk.

[The Man in Blue]

4 hours ago, BrainFreeze said:

 Too much emphasis on "taking a position" imho.

 

12 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

I haven't had to convince anyone I trained that if a pitcher finished his pitch and was within 5 feet of the rubber without the catcher having thrown back the ball, or the fielders not yet returning the ball, that it was not a balk.

 

I think you are on to something.  We have established that a fielder who muffs a ball should instantaneously vanish to avoid an obstruction call . . . So, I'm down with calling this.  

[johnnyg08]

On 5/13/2025 at 7:36 PM, grayhawk said:

This is why I love the NCAA rule. There is no ambiguity. He's either touching the dirt, or he's not. I understand HS can't use the same standard since some fields might be all dirt, but since that's the case, they should use the OBR rule being on or astride the rubber.

This "taking a position" crap is ridiculous.

Agree. It would be very easy to say on fields with a grass infield stay off of the dirt. 

 

[Tog Gee]

On 5/13/2025 at 9:03 PM, jimurrayalterego said:

It is ridiculous and runs the risk of literal umpiring which I hope @Tog Gee hasn't run afoul of due to his caution to his pitchers.

And to be clear I meant, as a coach, I tell my pitchers to stay off the dirt/mound during a hidden ball trick. (not as an official). 

As a coach, I also tell these youth pitchers that if F3 fakes a throw back to the pitcher after a pickoff or a play, casually get off the mound. Just trying to keep us out of gray areas...