Batter unintentionally slings bat which hits catcher

[johnstfm]

This situation occurred in a 10u level kid pitch recreational level game operating under the Cal Ripken rule set.  No local rules for this league touch on this issue.  At this level, the teams bat their full roster with no substitutes.

With one out and a runner on first and second base, a batter swung and lost control of his bat which ended up striking the catcher squarely (and loudly) in the leg guards.  I did not judge the act to be intentional nor did it seemingly result in any interference.  The catcher was not injured or encumbered.

The batters hit was an infield ground ball which traveled to the defensive second baseman who completed a slow developing tag out force play of the runner traveling from first to second for the second out of the half inning.  In the interim, the batter-runner made it to first base safely and stopped there.  The runner that was on second base made it third base safely and then rounded and went home.  The catcher fielded a throw at home plate that came from the second baseman which was thrown late and the runner scored.

A different player from the same offensive team had thrown a bat earlier in the game and a warning was issued.  

What is the proper ruling?  Is this a delayed dead ball or an immediate dead ball?  If it is a delayed dead ball, does the run count of the player that scored? Is the batter-runner out?  Is the batter-runner bench restricted for the remainder of the game or will they be allowed to play defense still?  Would there be an out when their position in the line up came up again?  Does anyone have a rule citation for Cal Ripken (or little league)?

Thanks.

[noumpere]

It's not an out.  It can be an ejection.  Probably not in the situation you describe.

 

(Although I did hear of one league that had a rule that the NEXT batter was out.  Peer pressure stopped the bat slinging almost immediately.)

[beerguy55]

Unless this specific league (or tourney) has a specific bi-law describing this as an out, it's not an out, by rule - it could be, and likely should be, an ejection. It would depend on whether or not that warning applies to all players, or if each player gets his own little warning. I don't advocate giving every player one freebie.  So, you have to ask yourself, why did you make the warning if you weren't going to follow it through?

Even at 10U, if this is the second incident in the game, on the same team, you may have to come down hard. 

This can create a conundrum for coaches who want to argue with the umpire that incorrectly called the batter out..."Ump, throwing your bat is not an out"..."Ok coach, then shall I eject the kid?"

[SeeingEyeDog]

I've always liked hockey's ruling that intent is not part of the adjudication. After all, officials are not mind readers. Bottom line is, players are "responsible" for their sticks. High sticking, cross checking, hooking, slashing...those are 2-minute minors. Draw blood? Double minor.

Baseball players, especially young ones, need to learn to be responsible for their bats. In fact, more injuries occur due to the swinging of bats than any other circumstance. In a youth game, I'm ALWAYS having a conversation with the HC when someone throws a bat or swings in a dangerous manner (whether it makes contact or not). I do NOT simply let these things "go". First, it's an opportunity to establish your authority and that you saw something unsafe and you are bringing it to the attention of the HC. In most cases, when this happens and I talk to one HC typically the other HC also says something to their team about "holding onto their bats." Next, taking time to talk to the HC lets everyone mentally reset and really think about what just happened and what they are going to do next. Finally, as the umpire, I want to be able to explain to my assigner and or league leadership about what I observed and what I said and did about it. Admitting that yes...I saw someone throw a bat or swing a bat dangerously and I "let it go" without speaking to the HC? That's a sub-optimal look, frankly.

~Dawg

[Jay R.]

Absent a local rule that specifies that the batter is out, in youth leagues I would probably treat it like Little League---delayed dead ball, warning on the first offense, removal by the coach or ejection (coach can pick) for safety reasons on the second. 

I agree with @beerguy55: You can't give each player a warning. One per team is plenty, especially if they're as dramatic as you describe here. If you notice that bats are ending up in weird spots but don't want to officially warn or eject, you can quietly point out additional occurrences to the coach if you want, to build your case for the eventual ejection. 

At least in Little League (not sure about Ripken) an ejection comes with an automatic one-game suspension. When reminded of this, most coaches will choose to remove the player.

The play in the OP would stand, assuming that you judge that the thrown bat did not interfere with the defense's ability to play on the ball or runners.

[JonnyCat]

I'm always a little perplexed on how throwing the bat causes so much uproar in the umpiring community. Rant not directed at anyone, just my observation. This only applies to a thrown bat during an at bat.

I have never in my umpiring career got worked up over bat throwing. I've always treated it as an occupational hazard. I know it happens primarily in the younger levels, but it happens in the pros, too. I just don't know why some get so worked up over it. I mean, we're standing about 2 feet away from a guy swinging a stick! What, letting go of the bat is never going to happen? What did you think might happen? 

Honestly, I've been injured WAAAY more from that stupid baseball as opposed to a bat, sometimes fairly seriously. But never from a thrown bat. In fact, I've never even seen a serious injury from a bat in a game in over 20 years of umpiring. I've never seen anyone leave a game because of a thrown bat injury. Very rarely it's an ouchie that the kid shakes off. I've seen serious injuries from a pitched/batted ball, sliding, collisions, but never from a thrown bat. Not ever working or watching games. Never even seen a bat explode, or impale someone, never seen a broken bone from one. (I know serious injuries have happened in the majors, but it's very rare and you can get seriously injured from other aspects of the game.)

Yes, bats can and have caused serious injuries. The only time I've ever heard of serious injuries from swinging a bat is when some one is taking a warm up swing, practice swing, or BP, something like that, and someone runs into the swing. That I've seen and is a big concern, and should be watched out for. Sometimes the bats break and can cause injury.

Maybe it's just me, but I've never experienced a thrown bat during an at bat cause a serious injury.

[Jay R.]

1 hour ago, JonnyCat said:

I know it happens primarily in the younger levels

This is the issue. Some younger kids have the habit of throwing the bat, and 10- and 12-year-olds are strong enough to cause injury with them.

When you watch the same batter throw the bat past your head in his first at-bat and hard into the catcher's shins the second at-bat, he can't get a third at-bat that game.

[The Man in Blue]

What about one that lands here:

 

. . . and just about takes out the lady working in the concession stand?

 

Yup.  While he was on deck, he let one slip that hit about ten feet up on the net behind the batter.  Because of that, we did issue him a warning after he bombed the concession stand.  A warning and some added pine tar took care of it.

[Umpy]

Maybe in 12U/10U we should call time and insist the batter-runner come back to the plate to apologize to the catcher. Louder, and say it like you mean it batter-runner.

[beerguy55]

4 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

Maybe it's just me, but I've never experienced a thrown bat during an at bat cause a serious injury.

I think I can say I have the same experience, but I've seen enough near misses to know that my (and your) experience is more an element of luck, rather than a measure of the actual risk.

Seeing bats flung into the catcher's/ump's shin pads, helicoptered backwards past the ump's/catcher's heads, or the ODB's head, or the base coaches, or into the dugout, or into the spectators on one of those fields that only has a backstop...well, you get the picture.  I've had my fill of wondering what things would have looked like but for a few feet...or inches.

Combine that with the fact that this is one injury risk you can actually do something about - it's not a risk you have to accept...it's a behavior that can mostly be corrected, and should be. I'm not talking about a batter who gets fooled on a low outside curve, but batters actually throwing the bats after they get a hit.   You accept that foul balls are gonna hit you in the head.  You can't tell the batter to stop fouling the ball straight back.  You can get them to stop throwing the bat...and I see no problem in getting worked up when particular players continue to do so...especially when coach doesn't see the problem.

 

In the HSE world "near miss" (close call...narrow escape) is a reported/captured stat that is used as a bellwether for actual incidents - it's considered a leading indicator.  Treat them as seriously as you would an actual incident.  The Near Miss gives you the opportunity to change something to keep OHS off your site.

[JonnyCat]

3 hours ago, Jay R. said:

This is the issue. Some younger kids have the habit of throwing the bat, and 10- and 12-year-olds are strong enough to cause injury with them.

I get that. But I've never got that worked up over bat throwing, but apparently lots of people do. I mean the stereotype of calling a kid out for throwing the bat has been prevalent for years. Obviously it seems like a big issue in many people's minds. But where are all the reports of serious injuries?

It kind of reminds me of LL's stance on stickers on the helmet, or players wearing jewelry, or adults warming up pitchers, and umpires must check gear for the safety of little Billy and all the bunnies in the world. For years we were told these were "SERIOUS SAFETY ISSUES!" And we were to enforce those rules vociferously, without exception. But I always asked, were is the data? Where is the evidence that these things are such a grave danger to the players or coaches? There was none. It was just some jackwagons with their panties in a bunch over these issues. And lo and behold, LL dropped all of those rules and requirements. Why would they drop them if they were such serious safety issues? Hmmm.

I just treat it as an occupational hazard, but I've never been seriously injured by one, nor have I ever seen anyone else. It just befuddles me that people tend to get so worked up over it, when in reality, it's not that much of a problem that I can see. Players are more likely to get injured by a batted ball than anything else.

I'm more worried about the ball giving me a concussion, or a serious injury, than I am about bat flinging. JMO.

[JonnyCat]

32 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I've had my fill of wondering what things would have looked like but for a few feet...or inches.

That could be said about every batted ball. 

32 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Combine that with the fact that this is one injury risk you can actually do something about - it's not a risk you have to accept...it's a behavior that can mostly be corrected, and should be.

Can an umpire really do something about it? Other than punitive measures, not really. A coach can, and I coached for 14 years, so I did have to change that behavior. We even had drills in practice to work on this. (at the younger levels.)

The same can be said about correcting any behavior. Yet people still speed, still rob, still cheat, still lie.

I just don't see why people get so worked up over bat throwing. And it is a risk you have to accept. It is part of the job as an umpire, just like getting hit with a baseball. I don't like it, but I can't get too mad about it. If you're going to do this job, you're going to get hit. There's no way around it.

People can say or do anything they want, but like it or not, kids are going to throw the bat in baseball.

[beerguy55]

16 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

Can an umpire really do something about it? Other than punitive measures, not really. A coach can, and I coached for 14 years, so I did have to change that behavior. We even had drills in practice to work on this. (at the younger levels.)

Punitive or not, ejecting a kid for throwing a bat ensures he won't throw his bat any more that game...you're removing a risk that doesn't need to be present.   

Sure, there can be judgment to how many times you want to see it before it's a problem, but if you see the first three kids throw their bats, and don't act upon it, a SH*#storm is landing at your feet if kid four knocks out some poor grandmother sitting on her lawn chair.

Line drives and foul balls are part of the game...thrown bats are not.  One is a risk you must accept...one is a risk that must be mitigated, if not removed.

Dude won't wear his hard hat on a construction site...fire his ass.  Risk removed. 

I lost count the number of times an ump says something like "final warning - no more throwing bats", or does call a kid out for doing so, that somehow, no more bats get thrown that game.  It solves the problem far more often than it doesn't...leaving just the remaining kids that truly can't control themselves. 

51 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

The same can be said about correcting any behavior. Yet people still speed, still rob, still cheat, still lie.

You're not wrong...but you don't accept those risks...you do something about them...and people don't rob banks while they're in jail.  The existence of the death penalty didn't stop John Wayne Gacy, but executing him certainly did.  You might or might not change the attitude/behavior for some of the players in that game...but you've certainly ensured that particular kid won't do it again that game. 

No different than tossing a player for saying "you suck"...maybe that will shut the other players up...maybe it won't...but you certainly shut that player up.

[JonnyCat]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

Line drives and foul balls are part of the game...thrown bats are not.  One is a risk you must accept...one is a risk that must be mitigated, if not removed.

Thrown bats are part of the game. I never said umpires shouldn't take measures to limit thrown bats, rather, I am dumbfounded by umpires that get so worked up over thrown bats. I know it shouldn't happen, but it does.

There are deterrents to behaviors, but it doesn't stop them. For all we've done and pontificated about thrown bats, has it stopped? No. Will it ever stop, No. It's part of the risk of umpiring. It's going to happen. How people deal with it is their own business.

It is part of the game and will always be. You can mitigate it anyway you like. There's still going to be thrown bats.

Then again, maybe we should start calling outs!

[MadMax]

15 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

I just don't see why people get so worked up over bat throwing. And it is a risk you have to accept. It is part of the job as an umpire,

In my experience, I see a direct correlation between guys who call Outs for bat flinging / slinging to guys who develop (or maintain) a “my call, my game, my field” mentality. And, once armed with this “ghost gun (tool)”, completely from the Make 💩 Up (MSU) category, they are very prone to other MSU calls in the name of “safety”, such as punitive measures on “hard slides” (subject to UJ), no-slides (AKA coming in standing). 

These same guys are often the ones hiding (my word – cowering) behind catchers (of diminutive ages), telling them “it’s your job to protect me!” (or words to that effect). 

Ya know why this Calling Outs (for this) sets a bad precedent? Because, what is it that shortens games for us (as umpires, and other adults participating in youth baseball)? Gettin’ Outs. 

… and every coach adjacent to or exposed to this (begin to) knows this (of you)! 

If an act (by a youth player) means an Ejection, there’s not a single adult (in baseball) that wants to see a kid Ejected and denied the participation in the game. They’re very, very reserved about it. 
If that act brings an out? 🤔… “Hey Blue! He flung his bat! That’s an out, right?! Aren’t you going to do something about it??!! Another umpire called that against my/our kid last week, it ended (or killed a big joyful inning in) the game!” 

15 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Punitive or not, ejecting a kid for throwing a bat ensures he won't throw his bat any more that game...

As per above 👆🏼, I am not opposed to other corrective measures within the game’s context. Perhaps it’s an “ejection” or removal from the batting lineup, and with it – an Out at the next time at bat for failure to report to the box… and give the coach the option of a substitution (with no reentry to the lineup, or something). The kid doesn’t have to be off the field, or that (stupid at these levels) “out of sight and sound” crap typically associated with Ejections. I mean, I get it, kids (effectively) feel more shame in being singled out and unable to participate with their peers.

Being removed from the activity and forced to sit facing the corner – a form of solitary estrangement – in a “time out” is remarkably effective. 

[Jay R.]

33 minutes ago, MadMax said:

I am not opposed to other corrective measures within the game’s context. Perhaps it’s an “ejection” or removal from the batting lineup

This is what the LL chapter that I worked for was looking for as a best-case scenario: The manager removes him from the lineup, we interpret it (at least in the regular season) as an injury that prevents batting (and is thus not an out), but the player is still eligible to play the field and avoids the suspension that comes with an ejection.

[JonnyCat]

2 hours ago, MadMax said:

In my experience, I see a direct correlation between guys who call Outs for bat flinging / slinging to guys who develop (or maintain) a “my call, my game, my field” mentality.

Exactly! I was thinking the same thing and wanted to mention something about that, but you summed it up better that I would have.

Thank you for that!

[rhanna]

I don't suppose any of the umpires here can point to the relevant portion of the little league rules? 

As far as I can tell, based on this discussion, there is no rules based (unless local modification) way for the batter to be out if the bat doesn't interfere with fielding the ball.  Can someone point to the relevant rule on a batter throwing a bat?  

The comment for rule 6.05(g) says that a thrown bat that interferes with the play is interference, but I can't find what section would be relevant for ejection or removal.

Edited May 13, 2025 by rhanna
New information added

[Velho]

4 minutes ago, rhanna said:

The comment for rule 6.05(g) says that a thrown bat that interferes with the play is interference, but I can't find what section would be relevant for ejection or removal.

It's not explicitly referenced but there is a supported path.

Had one locally last year (not by me) during All Stars when batter threw his bat following a warning. Team protested and the removal was upheld by San Bernardino.

[beerguy55]

On 5/8/2025 at 7:05 AM, MadMax said:

In my experience, I see a direct correlation between guys who call Outs for bat flinging / slinging to guys who develop (or maintain) a “my call, my game, my field” mentality.

Agree 100% here.

Though I think there is an appropriate path to correcting/punishing behavior, after appropriate assessment/warning, the Venn diagram for the guys who make themselves the center of the thrown bat piece (often in the pre-game plate meeting), and the guys who say "my field, my strike zone" is just one circle.

[Replacematt]

19 hours ago, Velho said:

It's not explicitly referenced but there is a supported path.

Had one locally last year (not by me) during All Stars when batter threw his bat following a warning. Team protested and the removal was upheld by San Bernardino.

It's been 30 years since I've done LL...wasn't this covered in the RIM?

[Velho]

32 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

It's been 30 years since I've done LL...wasn't this covered in the RIM?

Somewhat but stops short of EJ. It "highly recommends" to substitute for the player - which you can't do in CBO (most common batting order in 12U and below).