Offensive interference at 2nd with bases loaded

[Arr Gee]

This question is about offensive interference at 2nd, who should be called out, where do the runners belong after.  The age is 15-16 years old for context.

Before the play:

• Faster runner 3 on 3rd
• Faster runner 2 on 2nd
• Slow-to-mid runner 1 on 1st
• Slow-to-mid runner "Batter" at bat

The play:

• Batter hits slow roller to short.
• Shortstop picks up ball and runs to 2nd. 
• When shortstop steps on 2nd, runner 1 reaches 2nd and runs over shortstop - offensive interference.

At time the offensive interference occurs at 2nd:

• Faster runner 3 has touched home
• Faster runner 2 has touched 3rd
• Slow-to-mid runner "Batter" is 2-3 steps from 1st (i.e. unlikely that shortstop would turn the double play).

Where should the runners be placed and which are out?

Does timing matter?

Does the likelihood of turning a double play matter?

Thanks

[SH0102]

21 minutes ago, Arr Gee said:

This question is about offensive interference at 2nd, who should be called out, where do the runners belong after.  The age is 15-16 years old for context.

Before the play:

• Faster runner 3 on 3rd
• Faster runner 2 on 2nd
• Slow-to-mid runner 1 on 1st
• Slow-to-mid runner "Batter" at bat

The play:

• Batter hits slow roller to short.
• Shortstop picks up ball and runs to 2nd. 
• When shortstop steps on 2nd, runner 1 reaches 2nd and runs over shortstop - offensive interference.

At time the offensive interference occurs at 2nd:

• Faster runner 3 has touched home
• Faster runner 2 has touched 3rd
• Slow-to-mid runner "Batter" is 2-3 steps from 1st (i.e. unlikely that shortstop would turn the double play).

Where should the runners be placed and which are out?

Does timing matter?

Does the likelihood of turning a double play matter?

Thanks

R1 is out on the force, batter is out for the interference, r2 and r3 return to their bases.

How fast people are is irrelevant to any conversation about rule application.

[Richvee]

36 minutes ago, Arr Gee said:

Does the likelihood of turning a double play matter?

No. This is a force play slide violation. A search of the site will provide plenty discussions on the subject. 

[ousafe]

Don't we have to ask what rule set was being used?

[Richvee]

5 minutes ago, ousafe said:

Don't we have to ask what rule set was being used?

We will never know for sure without seeing it, but…..“ runs over the SS”……Sounds like a violation in any code. 

Plus this OP is asking about the applied penalty and runner placement , and not the validity of the call itself. 
 

[maven]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

We will never know for sure without seeing it, but…..“ runs over the SS”……Sounds like a violation in any code. 

Plus this OP is asking about the applied penalty and runner placement , and not the validity of the call itself. 
 

I think ousafe's question concerned FPSR, which does not apply in OBR.

For codes with FPSR, I agree with SHO102's initial response.

Without FPSR, in straight OBR, this would violate the "bona fide slide" rule, 6.01(j). R1 is out on the play, BR is out for R1's INT (assuming that's the runner the defense would have played on next).

Other runners return to their TOI bases, and I'm pretty sure R2 and R3 had not attained their advance bases at TOI.

[Arr Gee]

Thank you for the detailed and informative responses.  They do help.

I agree that I am not questioning the validity of the call.  It seems to me there was a violation but I was unclear which rule would apply and the outcomes for scoring and placement of the runners.

The case was in an Baseball Canada game which cites 2021 Official Baseball Rules 6.00, Improper Play, Illegal Action, and Misconduct.

[beerguy55]

On 7/6/2024 at 8:48 AM, SH0102 said:

How fast people are is irrelevant to any conversation about rule application.

How fast people are is relevant in determining where R2/R3 were at TOI.

As described, R2 and R3 likely reached their next bases before R1 reached his next base (and interfered with F6).

My "judgment" is likely that they did not, and unless we're playing under replay review rules, that's how it stands.

[noumpere]

On 7/8/2024 at 11:16 AM, beerguy55 said:

How fast people are is relevant in determining where R2/R3 were at TOI.

 

Yes, but if it's a FPSR violation (NCAA or NFHS), runners return TOP, not TOI.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

Yes, but if it's a FPSR violation (NCAA or NFHS), runners return TOP, not TOI.

Yes and thank you - the OP scenario occurred under OBR.

[TheLovejoy]

On 7/15/2024 at 12:37 PM, beerguy55 said:

Yes and thank you - the OP scenario occurred under OBR.

I was just thinking about this, and wanted to clarify for myself:

NFHS is TOP, OBR is TOI:

So, in the NFHS scenario, both runners would return to 2nd, and 3rd no matter what.
In OBR, last occupied base when interference occurred: So, you could have a play where the runner from 3rd has touched the plate, and the runner from 2nd hadn't made it to 3rd yet, (say he hesitated on the hit). You'd score a run, and place the other runner on 2nd?

In my mind, I'm seeing this as intentional interference on R1, in that case, doesn't it become 'no runs may score', or runner closest to home is out?
What ruling am I thinking of?

[beerguy55]

On 8/17/2024 at 10:38 AM, TheLovejoy said:

In my mind, I'm seeing this as intentional interference on R1, in that case, doesn't it become 'no runs may score', or runner closest to home is out?
What ruling am I thinking of?

Pretty sure that "runner closest to home" only comes into play with interference by a retired runner, scored runner, or other offensive team non-runner., when it is not evident which runner the defense was making a play on.

Having said all that and everything above, in OBR, doesn't the TOI discussion go out the window if B/R hasn't reached first base yet? (intervening plays aside, which doesn't apply to OP)

 

"In the event the batter-runner has not reached first base, all runners shall return to the base last occupied at the time of the pitch"

[MadMax]

On 8/17/2024 at 12:38 PM, TheLovejoy said:

I'm seeing this as intentional interference… doesn't it become 'no runs may score', or runner closest to home is out?

 

On 8/19/2024 at 9:30 AM, beerguy55 said:

that "runner closest to home" only comes into play with interference by a retired runner, scored runner, or other offensive team non-runner., when it is not evident which runner the defense was making a play on.

Classic example – a Base Coach interferes, especially on a pop up.