BATTER FOLLOW THROUGH INTERFEREENCE

[FLBaseballCoach]

MAY 2, 2024--JACKSONVILLE, FL
TRINITY CHRISTIAN ACADEMY vs BISHOP SNYDER HIGH SCHOOL
DISTRICT 2-3A CHAMPIONSHIP GAME

2 outs and 2 strikes on the batter.  The batter swings at a high fastball for strike 3 and the ball pops out of the catchers glove.  On the batters follow through, the bat strikes the lose ball in the air before it has touched the ground and knocks the ball to the backstop allowing the batter to reach first base on a dropped 3rd strike.  The ball had not touched the ground, it was still in the air, and the batter was still in the batters box.  The catcher could have secured the ball before it hit the ground for the out, conversely, the follow through was unintentional, and a natural baseball move.  Initially the umpires awarded the runner first base on a dropped 3rd strike, after conferring (There are 3 umpires because this Is a High School PlayoffGame) the batter/runner was called out on followthrough interference--this is the rule they applied
NFHS Rule Book
Rule 7
Section 3
Article 5c.

A batter shall not Interfere with the catcher’s fielding or throwing by making any other movement, including follow-through interference, which hinders actions at home plate or the catcher’s attempt to play on a runner.

WAS THIS RULE APPLIED CORRECTLY????

[The Man in Blue]

For NFHS, the ruling was correct, but you need to look at the section on follow through interference for the full citation.

 

(Note: different in other codes.)

[noumpere]

Agreed for NFHS.  Here's what I have for OBR; has it changed?

 

[The Man in Blue]

Not only has it not changed … there was an incident just recently and CCS covered it.

[noumpere]

What codes have it different? 

[The Man in Blue]

https://www.closecallsports.com/2024/04/mlb-ejection-029-ryan-additon-1-pat.html

[johnnyg08]

12 hours ago, FLBaseballCoach said:

MAY 2, 2024--JACKSONVILLE, FL
TRINITY CHRISTIAN ACADEMY vs BISHOP SNYDER HIGH SCHOOL
DISTRICT 2-3A CHAMPIONSHIP GAME

2 outs and 2 strikes on the batter.  The batter swings at a high fastball for strike 3 and the ball pops out of the catchers glove.  On the batters follow through, the bat strikes the lose ball in the air before it has touched the ground and knocks the ball to the backstop allowing the batter to reach first base on a dropped 3rd strike.  The ball had not touched the ground, it was still in the air, and the batter was still in the batters box.  The catcher could have secured the ball before it hit the ground for the out, conversely, the follow through was unintentional, and a natural baseball move.  Initially the umpires awarded the runner first base on a dropped 3rd strike, after conferring (There are 3 umpires because this Is a High School PlayoffGame) the batter/runner was called out on followthrough interference--this is the rule they applied
NFHS Rule Book
Rule 7
Section 3
Article 5c.

A batter shall not Interfere with the catcher’s fielding or throwing by making any other movement, including follow-through interference, which hinders actions at home plate or the catcher’s attempt to play on a runner.

WAS THIS RULE APPLIED CORRECTLY????

What part do you disagree with? 

[noumpere]

10 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

https://www.closecallsports.com/2024/04/mlb-ejection-029-ryan-additon-1-pat.html

Maybe I'm dense, but I still don't see a difference in the ruling for the OP between codes..

[DevildogUmp]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

Maybe I'm dense, but I still don't see a difference in the ruling for the OP between codes..

In OBR, if it wasn't strike 3, the batter would continue with a dead ball strike. High School, the batter is out on interference.

[Velho]

NFHS 7.3

 

OBR 6.03

[MadMax]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

but I still don't see a difference in the ruling for the OP between codes..

What @The Man in Blue is (likely) referring to is the parity between NFHS and OBR Follow-Through Interference. NFHS lumps FTI into and under BI. OBR has that rule “tiered”, with that clause that you cited as an “exception”. 

To your point, they arrive at the same conclusion (BR on a potential U3K is Out), but from two glaringly different avenues. 

4 minutes ago, DevildogUmp said:

In OBR, if it wasn't strike 3, the batter would continue with a dead ball strike.

Not true in this case, DDU… 

As per the OP, there were 2 strikes against the Batter TOP. The Batter is/was Out on that event occurring. 

What you’re addressing, though, affects the other Runners (if there are any). In OBR, it isn’t (quite) a “dead ball strike”. The F2 is allowed to, on “his initial throw” retire a Runner. Thus, the ball must be regarded as (still) Live. The rule states that no Runners can advance. If they do, we call “Time”, address the “infraction”, and place Runners back to TOP. If there was no attempt or advancement, we don’t have to call Time, but it is good practice to do so, so as to switch the ball and check on the F2. 

The point is the (swung) strike is not what killed the baseball – thus, it isn’t a Dead ball Strike. Instead, we (delayed) killed the baseball (with “Time”) to enforce the consequences of the infraction… if necessary. 
See the difference? 

NFHS doesn’t bother with that differentiation, and instead treats FTI as BI. 

[Velho]

23 minutes ago, DevildogUmp said:

In OBR, if it wasn't strike 3, the batter would continue with a dead ball strike. High School, the batter is out on interference.

To clarify and confirm what I'm hearing:  R1, swing, R1 is parked on 1B, follow-through interference knocks the ball away, R1 takes off - that's a simply a dead ball strike w/ R1 returning to 1B, correct?

[MadMax]

3 minutes ago, Velho said:

that's a simply a dead ball strike w/ R1 returning to 1B, correct?

No, the strike occurred before the ball was made dead. The FTI, and the F2’s inability to throw out a(ny) Runner, is what killed the ball. 

[Velho]

19 minutes ago, MadMax said:

No, the strike occurred before the ball was made dead. The FTI, and the F2’s inability to throw out a(ny) Runner, is what killed the ball. 

In OBR, ball is dead. R1 returns.
 

In NFHS, is it the same or is batter out and R1 returns?

 

[MadMax]

2 minutes ago, Velho said:

In NFHS…

That’s the crusher. In NFHS, FTI would = BI → Batter Out, Runners (if attempting and/or advancing) return TOP. 

I understand the purposes of the rule, and what it’s preventing / addressing, I just don’t like Fed’s rationale – “HS players should be able to control their bats” (paraphrased). 

Have you seen teenagers swing??! Yikes. 

[Richvee]

 

1 hour ago, DevildogUmp said:

In OBR, if it wasn't strike 3, the batter would continue with a dead ball strike. High School, the batter is out on interference.

 To be clear, in FED this is only if there are runners attempting to advance on the play. No runners on, or no runners advancing, this is simply a strike (dead ball with runners on)  like all other codes

[Velho]

38 minutes ago, Richvee said:

 To be clear, in FED this is only if there are runners attempting to advance on the play. No runners on, or no runners advancing, this is simply a strike (dead ball with runners on)  like all other codes

To get pedantic...

If it exacerbates it (ball in dirt followed by FTI hinderance), then batter is out. That I get.

What about runners trying to advance because of the FTI, e.g. swing, F2 catches the ball, runners stating put, then FTI knocks bal out of glove, runners try to advance. Is that a dead ball and no runners advances? Or batter is out?

[The Man in Blue]

The strike is a strike.  It is live until the follow through contacts the catcher.  Then we have a delayed dead ball for the contact.  In OBR, that’s all.

In NFHS . . . 

If it is strike 3, it is strike 3.  On the contact, the ball is dead and the batter may not advance if it is U3K.  If runners were moving, they are returned to TOP.

If it is strike 1 or 2, we have a delayed dead ball upon contact.  Was there a play to be made?  If so, NFHS now has the batter out and runners returned.  If there was no play to be made, dead ball.  Reset, play on.

Bold/italic = edit correction!

[MadMax]

Velho, we really could / should work together… I know where your head’s at… 

… or at least going… 

30 minutes ago, Velho said:

What about runners trying to advance because of the FTI, e.g. swing, F2 catches the ball, runners stating put, then FTI knocks bal out of glove, runners try to advance. Is that a dead ball and no runners advances? Or batter is out?

Ball is (delayed) dead because of the FTI. Thus, “nothing” can happen while the ball is dead. This is where a lot of amateur (ie. HS) umpires get themselves into trouble (with coaches, esp.). So if Runners were attempting/advancing at TOP, then it’s treated as FTI=BI. If they weren’t, then it’s treated the same as OBR. 

6 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

It is live until the follow through contacts the catcher.  Then we have a dead ball for the contact.  In OBR, that’s all.

Not quite. The contact is called / noted, but the ball remains Live to allow the F2 to make an initial throw (play attempt) if he chooses. No throw → Call Time, return Runners. Throw unsuccessful → Call Time, return Runners. [Here comes the lone difference between NFHS and OBR on this rule] – if < 2 strikes, Batter continues at bat. 

Again, in NFHS, if Runners were attempting / advancing at TOP, then it is treated as BI, Batter is Out. 

And back to @noumpere’s point – and applicable to a U3K in both codes, and the OP – the Batter/BR is Out. 

[Velho]

33 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Velho, we really could / should work together… I know where your head’s at… 

… or at least going… 

1 hour ago, Velho said:

What about runners trying to advance because of the FTI, e.g. swing, F2 catches the ball, runners stating put, then FTI knocks bal out of glove, runners try to advance. Is that a dead ball and no runners advances? Or batter is out?

Ball is (delayed) dead because of the FTI. Thus, “nothing” can happen while the ball is dead. This is where a lot of amateur (ie. HS) umpires get themselves into trouble (with coaches, esp.). So if Runners were attempting/advancing at TOP, then it’s treated as FTI=BI. If they weren’t, then it’s treated the same as OBR. 

👍 would help if I could tpye. Goodness.

This trails into OBS calls where the OBS creates a situation that puts the runner in peril but we'll save that for a different day as I continue to look for case plays video matching what I have in my minds eye.

[grayhawk]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

To get pedantic...

If it exacerbates it (ball in dirt followed by FTI hinderance), then batter is out. That I get.

What about runners trying to advance because of the FTI, e.g. swing, F2 catches the ball, runners stating put, then FTI knocks bal out of glove, runners try to advance. Is that a dead ball and no runners advances? Or batter is out?

Kill it before they can advance. Keeps a SH*# house from happening.

[Richvee]

3 hours ago, MadMax said:

Ball is (delayed) dead because of the FTI. Thus, “nothing” can happen while the ball is dead. This is where a lot of amateur (ie. HS) umpires get themselves into trouble (with coaches, esp.). So if Runners were attempting/advancing at TOP, then it’s treated as FTI=BI. If they weren’t, then it’s treated the same as OBR. 

This!! A million times this!!! 
I’ve had to explain to more than one HS umpire that a batter is not out for contacting the catcher on a follow through swing with no one on base 🙄

[The Man in Blue]

4 hours ago, MadMax said:

Not quite. The contact is called / noted, but the ball remains Live to allow the F2 to make an initial throw (play attempt) if he chooses. No throw → Call Time, return Runners. Throw unsuccessful → Call Time, return Runners. [Here comes the lone difference between NFHS and OBR on this rule] – if < 2 strikes, Batter continues at bat. 

Whoops!  Yes, thank you.  Delayed dead ball.

Just to keep building (since I had this recently: remember the play must result in an out to ignore the BI.  A decent throw that does not retire the runner is not “good enough.”  

I had a coach arguing his (struck out) batter stepping across the plate couldn’t be BI because the catcher got the throw off and the SS caught it (with one hell of a vertical leap).  Sorry.  Nope.

[Velho]

6 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

couldn’t be BI because the catcher got the throw off and the SS caught it (with one hell of a vertical leap)

Coach was doing his own leaping there

[The Man in Blue]

His catcher came out the next inning and said, “Brad was mad on that one.”

I told the catcher, “I’ve spent a lot of years thinking I always made Brad mad.  Then I learned his secret.”

Catcher beat me to the punchline: “He’s like the Hulk.  He’s always mad.”

🤣🤣

[Vegas_Ump]

In the OP, the batter swung on and missed for strike three--which for various reasons was uncaught.  Then, the FTI killed the ball.  No runners can advance, and the batter is out on three strikes despite the U3K.  How to deal with FTI varies among the books, but at the very least, the ball had to be killed.  Don't understand why the PU let the play continue.

Mike

Las Vegas