Nearly had a plate meeting ejection...

[SeeingEyeDog]

FED, Varsity, senior night for the HT...

The HT is an elite program that routinely goes to regionals. The VT has had baseball for 22 years...and has won 5 games in the school's history.

As we are waiting for warmups to finish, my partner and I notice the VT has 8 players. We assemble for the plate meeting and the HT hands over his lineup...no issues. The VT hands over his lineup with 9 players listed and my partner asks him, "Coach, I see 8 players for you on the field. Is 9 in the bathroom or otherwise indisposed?" and coach responds, "No. We have 8 and [insert HT coach's name] is providing us with a JV player to make 9."

My partner folds up VT's lineup, puts it in his book and says, "Ok, that is helpful. Thank you. My partner and I only saw 8 and of course you can't start the game with less than 9..."

Out of nowhere as the HT coach was not being addressed here, the HT coach says, "You know...you guys REALLY need to learn the rules! You're umpires!"

My partner says, "Coach, I'm not sure where you're going with this but, he has 9 players...we're good."

HT coach, "Guys...guys...the state athletic association has issued a modification before the start of the season that you can start with 8. These guys (meaning the VT) have started several games this season with 8. You don't know the rules!"

My partner, "Coach, there has been no modification on this. We're under FED rules and that rulebook clearly states each team must have 9 players to start the game."

HT coach, "And I'll tell you something else...you (referring to my partner) were out here last year and called a balk on my pitcher that should not have been called. You and me are going to get together after this game and read the rulebook on that, too!"

I'd finally had enough and said, "Coach, we don't adjudicate a baseball game based on common law practices and case history like we're all in a court of law. You are referring to things that are over and done with. Those games are over. This is a verbal warning and if you continue, you will be ejected." I really wanted to ask him, "Coach, are you ok?" when all of this started but I don't have enough of a rapport with this coach for him to hear that as anything but patronizing. The few times I have worked his games, I have never had any problems with him. Clearly, he had history with my partner I guess...which in post-game my partner could not even recall the balk situation coach referenced in his tirade.

He took a breath like he was going to grab another gear and then thought better of it. We concluded the plate meeting and eventually the game which the home team won by 22 runs in 5.5 innings. His JV player on loan to the VT wore the HT's uniform...should I have disallowed his participation on the basis of him not being "legally and properly equipped"? 🙄

I wish our society would learn to speak to the real issues instead of cloaking THIS issue with THOSE manufactured concerns. If he had said, "You know, it's senior night...we've gone to a lot of trouble with all the festivities tonight and I would hate for you (the umpires) to go home on account of the VT only having 8 players. Would it be alright if I loaned them a JV player so they'd then have 9 and we could get an official game in instead of a forfeit, please?"

~Dawg

[Jimurray]

3 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

FED, Varsity, senior night for the HT...

The HT is an elite program that routinely goes to regionals. The VT has had baseball for 22 years...and has won 5 games in the school's history.

As we are waiting for warmups to finish, my partner and I notice the VT has 8 players. We assemble for the plate meeting and the HT hands over his lineup...no issues. The VT hands over his lineup with 9 players listed and my partner asks him, "Coach, I see 8 players for you on the field. Is 9 in the bathroom or otherwise indisposed?" and coach responds, "No. We have 8 and [insert HT coach's name] is providing us with a JV player to make 9."

My partner folds up VT's lineup, puts it in his book and says, "Ok, that is helpful. Thank you. My partner and I only saw 8 and of course you can't start the game with less than 9..."

Out of nowhere as the HT coach was not being addressed here, the HT coach says, "You know...you guys REALLY need to learn the rules! You're umpires!"

My partner says, "Coach, I'm not sure where you're going with this but, he has 9 players...we're good."

HT coach, "Guys...guys...the state athletic association has issued a modification before the start of the season that you can start with 8. These guys (meaning the VT) have started several games this season with 8. You don't know the rules!"

My partner, "Coach, there has been no modification on this. We're under FED rules and that rulebook clearly states each team must have 9 players to start the game."

HT coach, "And I'll tell you something else...you (referring to my partner) were out here last year and called a balk on my pitcher that should not have been called. You and me are going to get together after this game and read the rulebook on that, too!"

I'd finally had enough and said, "Coach, we don't adjudicate a baseball game based on common law practices and case history like we're all in a court of law. You are referring to things that are over and done with. Those games are over. This is a verbal warning and if you continue, you will be ejected." I really wanted to ask him, "Coach, are you ok?" when all of this started but I don't have enough of a rapport with this coach for him to hear that as anything but patronizing. The few times I have worked his games, I have never had any problems with him. Clearly, he had history with my partner I guess...which in post-game my partner could not even recall the balk situation coach referenced in his tirade.

He took a breath like he was going to grab another gear and then thought better of it. We concluded the plate meeting and eventually the game which the home team won by 22 runs in 5.5 innings. His JV player on loan to the VT wore the HT's uniform...should I have disallowed his participation on the basis of him not being "legally and properly equipped"? 🙄

I wish our society would learn to speak to the real issues instead of cloaking THIS issue with THOSE manufactured concerns. If he had said, "You know, it's senior night...we've gone to a lot of trouble with all the festivities tonight and I would hate for you (the umpires) to go home on account of the VT only having 8 players. Would it be alright if I loaned them a JV player so they'd then have 9 and we could get an official game in instead of a forfeit, please?"

~Dawg

We had a similar issue in my neck of the woods but the coaches just wanted to know if they could get the game in. i suggested that we tell them to dress a trainer and have them faint after we pointed play. I think they folded anyway.

[MadMax]

18 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

should I have disallowed his participation on the basis of him not being "legally and properly equipped"?

Ya can’t, because of that…. ___________ rule within NFHS allowing the HC to add (JV/Freshman/Home Ec./etc.) players at any time during the game. I just love (ed: hate) it when colleague umpires start declaring how, “All numbers have to be on the lineup card, all numbers have to be unique, all jerseys have to be the same,  “. They don’t know what they’re talking about. The JV player being added can easily have the same number as one of the senior starters, the jersey can be yellow while the rest of the home jerseys are white, or… ready for this?… could simply be the unnumbered “batting practice” t-shirt the school wears. 

The name. The name is what matters. 

I know you meant it as a quip, Dawg, I’m just pointing it out for the rest of readership. 

18 hours ago, Jimurray said:

i suggested that we tell them to dress a trainer and have them faint after we pointed play.

The faint can only occur after a legal disengagement… 

Oh, I see what ya did there. 

[The Man in Blue]

Funny, this came up yesterday morning when our (the school I teach at) coach asked me how the rule worked.  They had just lost two more players to injury the night before and were down to eight players.  He was trying to decide if they needed to forfeit that day or not.  (We are REALLY bad and were travelling to play a really good non-conference team.  He was checking to see if it was their senior night before deciding.)

I told him he needed nine on the lineup card when he handed it to the umpire.  Before they take the field (visitors), tell the ump to scratch # whatever due to injury.

He said another umpire (assignor!) had previously told him he had to put nine players on the field for defense.  I disagreed; you have to start with nine.  If they batted first, the game started and they had nine.

WHY do umpires look for ways to screw kids out of the game?  We're sorry to the 8 kids and 2 coaches who travelled 45 minutes to get here and the home team's 20 kids, 4 coaches, concession workers, bookkeeper, and all their families, but we refuse to do this game because of one kid.  Thank you for my check.

[Velho]

22 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

We have 8 and [insert HT coach's name] is providing us with a JV player to make 9."

I'm good with this but is it legal for a NFHS non-scrimmage game?

[noumpere]

Call it a forfeit, treat it as a scrimmage, work the scrimmage.  Everyone gets to play, no rules are broken.

 

And, yes, NASO insurance (at least) will cover it.

[SeeingEyeDog]

7 hours ago, noumpere said:

And, yes, NASO insurance (at least) will cover it.

I respect what you're saying but...if I must wear a career-ender, I'd prefer to do so in an actual game rather than a scrimmage that I decide to do for some community greater good. If I end on a scrimmage, I'm always going to wonder what I was doing out there. God help me if my partner wears a career-ender on a scrimmage...

~Dawg

[JonnyCat]

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

if I must wear a career-ender, I'd prefer to do so in an actual game rather than a scrimmage that I decide to do for some community greater good.

Is there really a difference between a scrimmage game and an "actual game?"

I mean, the pay is the same. Does the actual league standings make a difference to us? Does it matter if one team gets the "W" and the other doesn't? What possible difference could it make?

In reality, they're all just games.

[MadMax]

2 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

God help me if my partner wears a career-ender on a scrimmage...

In AZ, they will not let us transpose a game into a scrimmage. We won’t get paid, none of our travel fee is paid, and any incidents or injuries are not covered or defended by the state. 

A lot of (smaller) high schools will contract non-state assigners to assign umpires to non-varsity “games” (JV, Freshman, scrimmages) because we’ve been told by the state that as soon as it falls outside of a sanctioned game, you’re on your own. Sure, NASO might (likely will) cover it, for any injuries… but a lot of guys are risk-averse. 

I once had a small HS travel 2 hours into Tempe, AZ to play a local parochial HS (so, small but $$$). They had 10 players, with 2 of them being girls (this wasn’t the problem; and, the girls wore “their” softball uniforms (might have been theirs, might have been borrowed )). The F3 had never played baseball before, and was being borrowed from the Cross Country roster (this wasn’t the problem). The problem emerged mid-1st inning, when the catcher (the only catcher they had), appeared at the plate… with a 2-piece mask.  
So he starts warming his F1 up, but I immediately flag down the HC, “Vince, we’ve got a problem. Does he <points> have a different mask?” 
“Uh, no, what’s wrong with that one?” 
“It’s not a one-piece, he can’t use it for a sanctioned (em mine, I actually, tonally emphasize this word) game.” 
“I don’t know what to tell ya, we’ve been using it all year.” 
“You’re kidding. That’s in the rules. He’s gotta have a 1-piece. I can’t let him catch with that 2-piece.” 
“Why? Other umpires didn’t have a problem with it before.” 
<my jaw drops> “You’re… you’re not kidding. Well, ugh, they’re not supposed to be allowing…” 

“You’re not going to forfeit the game, are ya?” 

I looked at him calculatively, and then wheeled to hail the other HC, who has ex-MLB pedigree and whose HS has mega-donor-$$$… “Hey Harold! We’ve got a bit of a problem. Their catcher doesn’t have a 1-piece, and if they don’t have one, I can’t let the game proceed… any chance you can share?” 
Harold- “Oh… oof <wince>… Shane (3rd string catcher, bullpen, Freshman)??! You got yer gear??! Bring yer mask, we gotta borrow it!” 

Of course, it was a gleaming-clean All-Star MVP2500, just like the other 2 catchers on the roster. VT catcher used it for the duration of the game, and gave it back to Shane at the end. 

Now, obviously, we didn’t forfeit the game. Did I restrict the HC, or admonish or chastise him for “lying to me” about “legally and properly equipped” at the plate meeting? No, that’d be… what’s a good term? 🤔… ah, “overly officious”. 

I did call my state supervisor immediately after to notify him of other umpires allowing the egregious gear (mask). I just couldn’t take the risk, myself, considering that all it takes is one photo posted to a website or social media, of that catcher wearing that 2-piece, and my phone starts ringing. 

[blue23ll]

So, Home team wins 10 - 0, game goes 4 1/2 innings. Visiting team had to drive 2 hours to the game and asks if they can continue playing.  What do you do?

[The Man in Blue]

@MadMax … if your state association takes that much control and power: when in Rome.  I won’t ding you for doing what the boss says.

My state does not.  They are not the boss, albeit they have low-level influence.  If it is outside of post season (or collecting money from umpires) it is something they are on the outer reaches of the universe on.

Creative problem solving is not illegal.  😁

[The Man in Blue]

49 minutes ago, blue23ll said:

So, Home team wins 10 - 0, game goes 4 1/2 innings. Visiting team had to drive 2 hours to the game and asks if they can continue playing.  What do you do?

Ask them If they want to pay for a second game at my “non-scheduled rate.”

[blue23ll]

3 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Ask them If they want to pay for a second game at my “non-scheduled rate.”

Is that your way of saying you are walking toward the parking lot?

[SeeingEyeDog]

3 hours ago, blue23ll said:

So, Home team wins 10 - 0, game goes 4 1/2 innings. Visiting team had to drive 2 hours to the game and asks if they can continue playing.  What do you do?

In my state? Umpires have been instructed that the game is over at 10+ runs after FIVE innings. So, in your specific scenario we would continue to work that game.

Once it's 10+ runs after 5 innings or the home team is up by 10+ after the top of the 5th, the umpires are to declare the ballgame over, leave the field, process our post-game e-paperwork...and sometime around late June, we will collect that game fee along with all of our other spring scholastic game fees.

We do not have to police the field nor does my state give umpires any discretion with respect to "how far was the visiting team's drive". Whatever happens after declaring a game over is not the responsibility of the umpires. Most teams in my state will pack up and go home. Some have stayed and continued to scrimmage. Again, that's their decision and the responsibility of the coaches and the home team's AD.

~Dawg

[SeeingEyeDog]

4 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

Is there really a difference between a scrimmage game and an "actual game?"

I mean, the pay is the same. Does the actual league standings make a difference to us? Does it matter if one team gets the "W" and the other doesn't? What possible difference could it make?

In reality, they're all just games.

Consider this...

One of the teams doesn't have 9 players and you have no local or state modification. Under FED, the umpires should announce a forfeit and leave the field. (In my market, we get half fee for leaving the house and full fee after first pitch so, in this case, we would get half fee.)

But, instead...the umpires decide to stay, you know "for the kids" and "for The Game" and work this game as a scrimmage. Sounds like the right thing to do, right? Maybe it is...

And then during this scrimmage, someone inside the fences sustains a serious injury...could be a player, a coach or even an umpire. I don't know how things work in your market but, in my market, one of the first calls regarding this incident WILL BE to? Yup...the umpires. Whether the umpires had anything directly to do with the injury or not that question will be something along the lines of, "So, a team had less than 9 players. That was a forfeit...why were the umpires STILL on the field?"

Now maybe you wouldn't mind a phone call like that...or worse, a subpoena in a personal injury case. I personally would like to reduce my risk to those kinds of situations so, I'm walking off the field there.

And pre-emptively...No, I am personally aware of an umpire ever being sued or appearing in court but, if it's a forfeit and the umpires walk off the field as they should? That call is a formality and if an umpire is subpoenaed they're going to say, "Yeah, it was a forfeit and we left the field per our instructions from our state athletic association/umpire association direction." Why expose yourself to any more risk or liability than you have to?

As always, make sure YOU know what YOUR local leagues and associations want done in these situations and execute their policies and procedures. Just like with inclement weather...

~Dawg 

[JonnyCat]

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

As always, make sure YOU know what YOUR local leagues and associations want done in these situations and execute their policies and procedures.

8 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I respect what you're saying but...if I must wear a career-ender, I'd prefer to do so in an actual game rather than a scrimmage

That's a different situation than what I responded to. You talked about a career-ender to yourself, which is what I was responding to.

I would support anyone doing what their organization requires. If your organization doesn't want you to work anything but "sanctioned games", I totally respect that. If your pay is different for a scrimmage game, I would respect not working that game, as well.

I just disagree that getting a "career-ender" in a "sanctioned" game somehow carries more glory than in a scrimmage game.

They're all just games.

[The Man in Blue]

On 5/5/2024 at 9:11 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

Consider this...

One of the teams doesn't have 9 players and you have no local or state modification. Under FED, the umpires should announce a forfeit and leave the field. (In my market, we get half fee for leaving the house and full fee after first pitch so, in this case, we would get half fee.)

But, instead...the umpires decide to stay, you know "for the kids" and "for The Game" and work this game as a scrimmage. Sounds like the right thing to do, right? Maybe it is...

And then during this scrimmage, someone inside the fences sustains a serious injury...could be a player, a coach or even an umpire. I don't know how things work in your market but, in my market, one of the first calls regarding this incident WILL BE to? Yup...the umpires. Whether the umpires had anything directly to do with the injury or not that question will be something along the lines of, "So, a team had less than 9 players. That was a forfeit...why were the umpires STILL on the field?"

Now maybe you wouldn't mind a phone call like that...or worse, a subpoena in a personal injury case. I personally would like to reduce my risk to those kinds of situations so, I'm walking off the field there.

And pre-emptively...No, I am personally aware of an umpire ever being sued or appearing in court but, if it's a forfeit and the umpires walk off the field as they should? That call is a formality and if an umpire is subpoenaed they're going to say, "Yeah, it was a forfeit and we left the field per our instructions from our state athletic association/umpire association direction." Why expose yourself to any more risk or liability than you have to?

As always, make sure YOU know what YOUR local leagues and associations want done in these situations and execute their policies and procedures. Just like with inclement weather...

~Dawg 

 

That's a big bowl of bunk.

Your state organization's by-laws dictate what is an official contest under their purview.  I would bet dollars to donuts your state organization heavily emphasizes that you are an independent contractor.  As such, your state organization cannot call you to grill you about a game that is not under their jurisdiction.

As for a subpoena in a personal injury case, please explain how an umpire is responsible for an injury beyond allowing unsafe playing conditions.  The schools still agreed to contract you, an independent contractor, for their school event - whether that is calling a baseball game or chaperoning prom.  Barring any grossly negligent behavior on your part ("No coach!  This is not a sanctioned game, so I am not stopping the pitcher from driving nails into the ball!  Yes, coach, he can use a broadsword for a bat."), you have no more or less liability than you did 20 minutes ago.

You might make the big boys on your state alphabet angry with you, but a judge is not going to say, "Not guilty . . . wait, what?  They had eight players?  Well, in that case, I sentence you to hang . . . hang . . . HANG!"

You may not be covered under your state org's insurance during that game.  That's all.

[The Man in Blue]

On 5/5/2024 at 8:51 PM, blue23ll said:

Is that your way of saying you are walking toward the parking lot?

Unless they break out their wallet . . . and possibly even then.  Just depends on my plans and how they acted.

They contracted me for a game, not for 7 innings.  That game ended.  I don't see them ponying up when we go to extra innings, we get told "that's just a game." 

(That said, there is a school around here who pays their "after-varsity JV innings" by the number of innings played at $8/inning.  I won't work there.  Rate is too low, you don't know what they plan on playing, and they mail that check later.)

[BigBlue4u]

On 5/5/2024 at 2:49 PM, MadMax said:

“I don’t know what to tell ya, we’ve been using it all year.” 
“You’re kidding. That’s in the rules. He’s gotta have a 1-piece. I can’t let him catch with that 2-piece.” 
“Why? Other umpires didn’t have a problem with it before.” 

The most often used non-verifiable statement in the history of high school baseball!

[jms1425]

Yup - hear that nonsense all the time. And I always say, "Coach, I can't speak to the rest of the season, but we're gonna get it right today."

[johnnyg08]

On 5/5/2024 at 4:55 PM, blue23ll said:

So, Home team wins 10 - 0, game goes 4 1/2 innings. Visiting team had to drive 2 hours to the game and asks if they can continue playing.  What do you do?

I'm leaving 100% of the time. 

[johnnyg08]

On 5/7/2024 at 7:34 PM, The Man in Blue said:

$8/inning.  I won't work there.  Rate is too low, you don't know what they plan on playing, and they mail that check later.)

We used to have a $10/inning provision in our contract until some cheap-ass team paid us $5 b/c we didn't play the bottom half. 🙄

So we amended the contract to state that it's paid in full from the top of the inning. 

[The Man in Blue]

On 5/31/2024 at 6:42 PM, BigBlue4u said:

The most often used non-verifiable statement in the history of high school baseball!

It wasn't a strike last inning!

Coach, what makes you so sure I was right then?  

[BigBlue4u]

On 6/2/2024 at 10:58 AM, jms1425 said:

Yup - hear that nonsense all the time. And I always say, "Coach, I can't speak to the rest of the season, but we're gonna get it right today."

🙂