"New" 2-man A position mechanic?

[SeeingEyeDog]

Greetings brothers,

     At a recent game I was working in the A position and my chief was serving in an evaluator capacity. After taking a few plays at 1B coming out of the A position which I took the same way I have always taken them...90 degrees to the throw, he grabbed me between innings and said while I was doing a great job executing the "old" mechanic that the "new", preferred mechanic is we take two or three steps into fair territory from A on ALL plays on ALL throws and take the plays from there. The only exception being a ball thrown from the vicinity of home plate to 1B and we would want to take an additional step or two further from that standard position. He said the reason we do this is because by taking it closer to the line, we have a better view of a pulled foot. Look, I'm getting evaluated and the evaluator tells me to do something, I'm going to do it. I'll maybe ask a few questions to make sure I fully understand what I feel in this case is a fairly significant change to a technique I first learned in 1984 but, hey I try to be a good soldier and do as I'm told.

     Having said that...this "technique" really doesn't wash with me. The whole reason we take these plays at 90 degrees to the throw is because the angle that F3 steps out from the bag to take the throw is on-line to the vector of the throw. If the throw is from F5, then F3 is going to step in that direction and if I am 90 degrees to the throw, I will see that pulled foot. If I am close to the baseline as my evaluator instructed EVERY time, and it's a throw from F5, F3 will have his foot on the front edge of the bag facing home plate. I am now not going to see a pulled foot because I am flatlined by his body and the base itself. Finally, with nobody on in 2-man and a play at 1B, PU is coming up the line to get RLI, pulled foot or swipe tag. U1 needs to do their best on every play to get a pulled foot of course but, why deliberately position yourself in such a way that you are now deliberately giving that pulled foot call to your partner?

     What do you have here, brothers? Is anyone else using or teaching this technique? Am I missing some nuance that will allow me to better see that pulled foot from an F5 throw? Is there anything else we do here OTHER than "90 degrees to the throw"? I'm ready to flush this as bad advice and call it a day and it wouldn't be the first time I got bad information in an evaluation situation but, I want to get another opinion on all of this before pulling the handle...

~Dawg

[Velho]

FWIW, I know this doesn't have standing with some but, LL switched to this mechanic. I assumed it was an acquiescence to the fact that they have a huge number of umpires and wanted to simplify instruction (particularly on small field where you don't have much time - 2 steps vs 2-5).

Interesting to hear it's being done at higher levels. Was this HS or NCAA?

[JonnyCat]

I've been utilizing and teaching 2 steps fair (2SF) for a number of years now, and find it superior to the old 90 degree method. This is at the HS and LL levels I work and teach at. I believe that it was more of a college mechanic originally, but don't quote me on that.

The problem with the 90 degree is not so much the technique, but the tendency to over-rotate and now create a straight-line situation which impedes your view of the runners touch of the bag.

Another problem with using 90 degrees, especially at the higher levels, is the time it takes to get set up, watch the play, the throw to the fielder, and the touch of the bag. 90 degrees can get you in position a little later and the play can blow up on you, or the umpire isn't able to watch and process all aspects of the play. I love the extra time it gives me to observe the play. Since I've been using the 2SF technique, plays at first have seemed to slow down for me.

2SF gives you more time to set up and watch the play, plus I find it gives you a much better view, as well.

You also get a better view of a pulled foot. Plus, IMO, you're in a better position to adjust for swipe tags and other irregularities.

If you try it out, I'm willing to bet you'll be a fan. It's worked great for me, and also for everyone I know that has adopted it.

I've had trouble with plays at 1B in the past, that was probably the weakest part of my game for a while. Practice, a lot of training, and 2SF has definitely improved my game immensely with plays at 1B.

[wolfe_man]

Does 2SF interfere with your ability to get to second on an overthrow at 1B? Being deeper makes you have to cover more ground to cover a play at 2B now. 
 

I will concede I see this being done at higher levels, but they have more umpires too.

[noumpere]

9 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

and it's a throw from F5, F3 will have his foot on the front edge of the bag facing home plate.

Does he?

 

Most of the time, the foot is still on the 2B edge of first, even on throws from the plate area.  You want to move out a bit from 2SF on some of these so you can read the throw better, but you don't need to get to 90*.

 

And, if we were really 90*, anything beyond the 1B-2B line would have us taking it from foul territory.

It's not really new, but, like all such mechanics, it goes back and forth and depends on the particular evaluator.

[Jimurray]

6 hours ago, noumpere said:

Does he?

 

Most of the time, the foot is still on the 2B edge of first, even on throws from the plate area.  You want to move out a bit from 2SF on some of these so you can read the throw better, but you don't need to get to 90*.

 

And, if we were really 90*, anything beyond the 1B-2B line would have us taking it from foul territory.

It's not really new, but, like all such mechanics, it goes back and forth and depends on the particular evaluator.

Evans taught that 90 to throw for throws from the box but in recent years it seems F3 is, as you say, inside aligned with 2B probably because F2 is going to throw inside to make the play regardless of the RL violation which in my neck of the woods happens 99 percent of the time but only needs to be called 1 percent of the time.

[SeeingEyeDog]

@Velho, this was a HS varsity game.

All...ok, so wow! This is apparently indeed a thing. And for what it's worth although this was a HS game, my evaluator is also a regional level LL guy so, it sounds like this may have it roots there and/or some of you mentioned this for NCAA too. Ok, well I will give it a try then. Obviously, no two plays are alike and part of umpiring is reducing and managing compromises and work to get the best timing and distance on every play.

@noumpere, so I'm picturing a RHT F3 taking a throw from the vicinity of 3B. That F3 will be holding the bag with the sole of the ball of his left foot which will be touching 1B on the plate side of the corner of the bag. From 2SF out of A, I'm not seeing a pulled foot there. From 90 degrees to throw, I am. It's a very specific scenario, granted...and I do acknowledge 2SF is better to see swipe tags from.

~Dawg

[JSam21]

On 3/3/2024 at 6:24 AM, wolfe_man said:

Does 2SF interfere with your ability to get to second on an overthrow at 1B? Being deeper makes you have to cover more ground to cover a play at 2B now. 
 

I will concede I see this being done at higher levels, but they have more umpires too.

Not for me. My read steps take me that direction anyway when I read a bad throw.

[JSam21]

On 3/3/2024 at 2:11 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

@Velho, this was a HS varsity game.

All...ok, so wow! This is apparently indeed a thing. And for what it's worth although this was a HS game, my evaluator is also a regional level LL guy so, it sounds like this may have it roots there and/or some of you mentioned this for NCAA too. Ok, well I will give it a try then. Obviously, no two plays are alike and part of umpiring is reducing and managing compromises and work to get the best timing and distance on every play.

@noumpere, so I'm picturing a RHT F3 taking a throw from the vicinity of 3B. That F3 will be holding the bag with the sole of the ball of his left foot which will be touching 1B on the plate side of the corner of the bag. From 2SF out of A, I'm not seeing a pulled foot there. From 90 degrees to throw, I am. It's a very specific scenario, granted...and I do acknowledge 2SF is better to see swipe tags from.

~Dawg

So we are starting 2-3 steps off the line, then we add read steps. We are reading F3's feet to tell us how to adjust. Shuffle to their left, move more into fair territory and possibly crash the bag a little in case a tag play develops. Shuffle to the right, swing more into fair territory, but keep depth, to get a look at the foot coming off towards you. 

 

Frankly, the most important thing here is to get your eyes to F3's feet as soon as you know the throw is coming your way. This is what gives us our reads and allows the plays to slow down for us. We really need to stop "tracking the ball" across the diamond. 

If the throw gets away, you are already moving toward the inside to cover 2nd. Don't get caught ball watching here and you will be fine getting inside on over throws. 

[wolfe_man]

8 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

Not for me. My read steps take me that direction anyway when I read a bad throw.

It's funny this got posted (the topic in general). Our speaker at the last meeting of our association spoke on using this now, even though our OHSAA manual doesn't have us doing it yet.   He said the same thing you just did.  Read and react appropriately - and try to get to the inside view of the play (I asked if we stay out or cross inside).

He kept using the buzzwords "shoetops" and "halo".  We get close enough to see their shoetops, so maybe 8-10' max from the play.  Get your nose in there and see what's going on!

[JSam21]

2 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

It's funny this got posted (the topic in general). Our speaker at the last meeting of our association spoke on using this now, even though our OHSAA manual doesn't have us doing it yet.   He said the same thing you just did.  Read and react appropriately - and try to get to the inside view of the play (I asked if we stay out or cross inside).

He kept using the buzzwords "shoetops" and "halo".  We get close enough to see their shoetops, so maybe 8-10' max from the play.  Get your nose in there and see what's going on!

It is what I have been taught at camps and it is what I teach to the local group here. Far too often, we have people to start WAY too deep in A. Seeing the tops of F3's shoes will allow us to get a good look at those low line drives that may or may not skip into the glove. I prefer to work tight to F3/F5 for that reason. I give them that 8'-10' halo around them to work, if they are that far off the line, I will be essentially even with them. It gives me a great look at the line drives and I don't have to avoid them when they go to field a fly ball towards the line.

[wolfe_man]

13 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

It is what I have been taught at camps and it is what I teach to the local group here. Far too often, we have people to start WAY too deep in A. Seeing the tops of F3's shoes will allow us to get a good look at those low line drives that may or may not skip into the glove. I prefer to work tight to F3/F5 for that reason. I give them that 8'-10' halo around them to work, if they are that far off the line, I will be essentially even with them. It gives me a great look at the line drives and I don't have to avoid them when they go to field a fly ball towards the line.

I always appreciate you sharing knowledge. Thank you.

I watch a lot of MLB highlights and mostly to see the proper umpire positioning, so I probably had more of a head start than many in my group. I was doing a semi-modified version of it already, but I have been going out too far towards 2B so I'll adjust that this Spring.  This technique should provide a better look at a pulled foot and get me closer to hear the foot hit and glove pop on those close ones.

[JSam21]

38 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

I always appreciate you sharing knowledge. Thank you.

I watch a lot of MLB highlights and mostly to see the proper umpire positioning, so I probably had more of a head start than many in my group. I was doing a semi-modified version of it already, but I have been going out too far towards 2B so I'll adjust that this Spring.  This technique should provide a better look at a pulled foot and get me closer to hear the foot hit and glove pop on those close ones.

I appreciate the kind words.

Remember, you are still wanting to keep your depth for the plays at first (15'-18'). What going just off the line really prevents is F3 stepping directly at you. 

 

[Velho]

17 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

Remember, you are still wanting to keep your depth for the plays at first (15'-18'). What going just off the line really prevents is F3 stepping directly at you. 

1 hour ago, JSam21 said:

So we are starting 2-3 steps off the line, then we add read steps.

Likewise, appreciate the insight. Can you clarify the above? Are you saying you start in A with the outer edge of your right foot against the foul line about 15'-18' back of the bag, then move into 8'-10' for the infield throw to F3?

[JSam21]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

Likewise, appreciate the insight. Can you clarify the above? Are you saying you start in A with the outer edge of your right foot against the foul line about 15'-18' back of the bag, then move into 8'-10' for the infield throw to F3?

With no one on, I never want to get closer than 8-10' to the base for my starting position. We need to remember that there are two points that we are gauging our starting position off of, the base and F3. I don't want to be closer than 8-10' to either one of those points, especially the base as I don't want to lose perspective for fair/foul decisions on bounding balls. 

When we are taking a play at first base, for your everyday, run of the mill play, I'm going to be 15-18' from the base when taking that play. If it develops into a foot race or a tag play, then I will crash on the base. 

[Velho]

2 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

55 minutes ago, Velho said:

Likewise, appreciate the insight. Can you clarify the above? Are you saying you start in A with the outer edge of your right foot against the foul line about 15'-18' back of the bag, then move into 8'-10' for the infield throw to F3?

My spacing from F3 is 8-10 and no closer than that to the base if F3 is playing in front of the base, and then when I’m taking plays, I want to be 15-18 from the base. 

So if F3 stays on the SS side of the bag you're moving backwards at a ~45 degree angle toward RF?

[JSam21]

12 minutes ago, Velho said:

So if F3 stays on the SS side of the bag you're moving backwards at a ~45 degree angle toward RF?

I mean it depends on the depth of F3. I added more detail to the previous post. If I need to get more depth to get to the distance that I want from my starting position, then yes. 

 

It is something that I've added to my internal pre-pitch talk track, especially working U1 in the 3 umpire system with R1 only. "Get depth" is the last thing I say to myself. When I am working U1 in the 3 umpire system, I am 6-8' from the base for the pick-off play... So I really need to get depth on ground balls in the infield. So anytime that I break that 15-18' "halo" around the base as my starting position, I always say "get depth". 

[Kevin_K]

This approach also emphasizes the proper use of your eyes before making a call. As @JSam21 mentioned, our focus is on the bag and the fielder's feet rather than tracking the ball across the diamond. 

The pop of the ball in the glove is the signal to find the ball before making any call. That process slows everything down after several reps and takes almost all the guess work out of any whacker. With time, the proper use of eyes becomes routine and easily transferrable to all aspects of umpiring.

The 2SF mechanic has been taught in camps in this area for a while and I find it helps keep me in better positions for out of the ordinary plays, slows my calls down, and puts the focus on the play rather than selling a call.

[SeeingEyeDog]

As far as pre-pitch positioning in A...I was taught to be one step in front of F3 as this give us the best look at him fielding a low hot shot with respect to catch/no-catch while also creating a lane for him if he needs to move to get into foul territory. Is this positioning still valid with 2SF?

~Dawg

[JSam21]

24 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

As far as pre-pitch positioning in A...I was taught to be one step in front of F3 as this give us the best look at him fielding a low hot shot with respect to catch/no-catch while also creating a lane for him if he needs to move to get into foul territory. Is this positioning still valid with 2SF?

~Dawg

We NEVER want to be in front of the defender in A regardless of the technique we use. We should always be starting behind the defender in A. In fact, I've never heard of anyone teaching to be in front of a defender when we are starting in A. 

 

[MadMax]

2 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

As far as pre-pitch positioning in A...I was taught to be one step in front of F3

Then you were taught incorrectly. 

Even an IP equal to F3 is incorrect. We should always be behind F3. Everything should happen in front of us. If there is ever a question of catch/no-catch (skip'n'scoop), then it is best to either defer to PU, or DO NOT make a call of catch – with no one on, the F3 will "tell" you whether or not he caught it; he has 1B right there anyway, so even if he caught it on the deck, and you (mistakenly) come up with "No catch!", he will in 99.99% of instances be able to touch 1B. 

And a lane into Foul territory?  If there's a smash right at you (and F3), the last thing you want to do is focus on the ball while F3 is making a play at the ball and likely crashing into you on your right shoulder. Otherwise, on a pop fly in front of you, or atop your head, you should be pivoting in anyway, yes? If it is a fly beyond you, then you "dance" with F3, let him clear and pursue the flight of the ball, and you promptly either reacquire the line for your Fair/Foul decision, or trail the F3 into Foul territory towards a/the boundary. 

You never set your IP in front of F3. Not even in 3-, 4-, or 6- man. 

[Jimurray]

37 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Then you were taught incorrectly. 

. Otherwise, on a pop fly in front of you, or atop your head, you should be pivoting in anyway, yes?   

 

Yes, pop-up equals pivot. I see a lot of staying in A. Luckily nobody has been burned with a hustling batter, a dropped fly and a play at 2B

[Biscuit]

5 hours ago, Velho said:

So if F3 stays on the SS side of the bag you're moving backwards at a ~45 degree angle toward RF?

Often times, I make more ground towards the outfield than off the line. I'm able to get inside ahead of a runner on anything other than the screwiest of plays, so even in 2 man, I end up closer to the outfield grass than first base. By a pretty good amount. That distance helps so much with get plays at first right. 

On the original topic, I only take a couple steps off the line. It helps me slow the play down and get the same look at plays at first every time. Almost every college instructor I've heard talk about it teaches it this way.

[SeeingEyeDog]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

Then you were taught incorrectly. 

Even an IP equal to F3 is incorrect. We should always be behind F3. Everything should happen in front of us. If there is ever a question of catch/no-catch (skip'n'scoop), then it is best to either defer to PU, or DO NOT make a call of catch – with no one on, the F3 will "tell" you whether or not he caught it; he has 1B right there anyway, so even if he caught it on the deck, and you (mistakenly) come up with "No catch!", he will in 99.99% of instances be able to touch 1B. 

And a lane into Foul territory?  If there's a smash right at you (and F3), the last thing you want to do is focus on the ball while F3 is making a play at the ball and likely crashing into you on your right shoulder. Otherwise, on a pop fly in front of you, or atop your head, you should be pivoting in anyway, yes? If it is a fly beyond you, then you "dance" with F3, let him clear and pursue the flight of the ball, and you promptly either reacquire the line for your Fair/Foul decision, or trail the F3 into Foul territory towards a/the boundary. 

You never set your IP in front of F3. Not even in 3-, 4-, or 6- man. 

Yeah, Max...

~Dawg

[NVUmp]

On 3/2/2024 at 10:51 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

Greetings brothers,

     At a recent game I was working in the A position and my chief was serving in an evaluator capacity. After taking a few plays at 1B coming out of the A position which I took the same way I have always taken them...90 degrees to the throw, he grabbed me between innings and said while I was doing a great job executing the "old" mechanic that the "new", preferred mechanic is we take two or three steps into fair territory from A on ALL plays on ALL throws and take the plays from there. The only exception being a ball thrown from the vicinity of home plate to 1B and we would want to take an additional step or two further from that standard position. He said the reason we do this is because by taking it closer to the line, we have a better view of a pulled foot. Look, I'm getting evaluated and the evaluator tells me to do something, I'm going to do it. I'll maybe ask a few questions to make sure I fully understand what I feel in this case is a fairly significant change to a technique I first learned in 1984 but, hey I try to be a good soldier and do as I'm told.

     Having said that...this "technique" really doesn't wash with me. The whole reason we take these plays at 90 degrees to the throw is because the angle that F3 steps out from the bag to take the throw is on-line to the vector of the throw. If the throw is from F5, then F3 is going to step in that direction and if I am 90 degrees to the throw, I will see that pulled foot. If I am close to the baseline as my evaluator instructed EVERY time, and it's a throw from F5, F3 will have his foot on the front edge of the bag facing home plate. I am now not going to see a pulled foot because I am flatlined by his body and the base itself. Finally, with nobody on in 2-man and a play at 1B, PU is coming up the line to get RLI, pulled foot or swipe tag. U1 needs to do their best on every play to get a pulled foot of course but, why deliberately position yourself in such a way that you are now deliberately giving that pulled foot call to your partner?

     What do you have here, brothers? Is anyone else using or teaching this technique? Am I missing some nuance that will allow me to better see that pulled foot from an F5 throw? Is there anything else we do here OTHER than "90 degrees to the throw"? I'm ready to flush this as bad advice and call it a day and it wouldn't be the first time I got bad information in an evaluation situation but, I want to get another opinion on all of this before pulling the handle...

~Dawg

Taking two steps off the line is typical for three-man mechanics, where you have another umpire in front of you to take the BR into 2B or 3B. 

That said, other than looking for a pulled foot, another reason to get ninety degrees to the throw is to get those few extra steps towards the grass in case of an overthrow to 1B.  Throws from 3B and the SS are more likely to result in an overthrow and those extra steps will help you get that much ahead of the runner if he/she decides to take an extra base.

BTW - I'm pretty sure we're part of the same Association and we teach all new umpires to get in position from A at ninety degrees to the throw.  Whoever your evaluator was isn't teaching the approved MAC mechanics.