Strike or Hit by Pitch

[Gary W Smith]

Batter gets in the box and not looking at pitcher and takes a practice swing as pitcher pitches as his bat crosses the plain he is hit by the pitch is it a strike or HBP. I say Strike but there seems to be a disagreement on this issue

[Richvee]

Tough to say without seeing it. My first concern here is the umpire allowing a pitch if the batter isn't ready and alert to the pitcher. 

[Tborze]

Coach pitch?

[noumpere]

7 hours ago, Richvee said:

Tough to say without seeing it. My first concern here is the umpire allowing a pitch if the batter isn't ready and alert to the pitcher. 

Agreed -- but if the umpire didn't (try to) stop it, then it's a pitch (and a swing, imo).

[ErichKeane]

If the batter isn't 'ready', the umpire should be yelling 'no pitch' and bailing out.  Then, it is up to the umpire to decide whether the ball was 'struck at' by the batter.  If so, it is a strike, else it is a HBP.  What it sounds like though, is a dog's breakfast that I'd be happy to not be on the field for.

[Senor Azul]

As described in the OP, I have a quick pitch. A quick pitch is an illegal pitch. Under OBR/NCAA rules an illegal pitch is a delayed dead ball--with no runners on base the penalty is a ball added to the count and with runners an illegal pitch is a balk.

Under FED rules an illegal pitch can occur with or without a runner(s). FED case play 6.2.4 COMMENT B tells us a quick pitch is an illegal pitch and is called a ball whether or not it goes through the strike zone. If there is a runner, a quick pitch is a balk. The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch is called.

Nowhere does it say that an umpire has to try to stop the pitch or it becomes a legal pitch.

[Velho]

22 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

As described in the OP, I have a quick pitch. A quick pitch is an illegal pitch. Under OBR/NCAA rules an illegal pitch is a delayed dead ball--with no runners on base the penalty is a ball added to the count and with runners an illegal pitch is a balk.

@Senor Azul, What about OBR 6.02(a) "PENALTY: The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk."

Assuming all runners are forced (i.e. R1 or R1&R2 orR1&R2&R3) wouldn't the HBP stand and the illegal pitch ignored?

[JSam21]

I know the exact video clip that you are referencing and I will make the same argument that I have made in the comments of said video. First, it isn't a legal pitch. Second, look up the definition of a strike. The video doesn't show a kid attempting to strike at the ball, it is a kid looking at the ground doing a bat waggle. 

[Senor Azul]

You raise a valid point, Mr. Velho. Here's what the 2021 MiLBUM (p. 122) tells us that answers your question:

If the balk is followed by a pitch which strikes the batter, call "Time" the moment the pitch strikes the batter. Then enforce the balk unless the hit batsman forces all other runners to advance one base, in which case play proceeds without reference to the balk.

Thanks for the clarification. 

[Replacematt]

Quick pitch aside (as the video was not provided for discussion and the narrator stipulated that it was not...)

This is not a strike. A strike requires the batter to strike at the pitch, which requires an intentional attempt, per Wendelstedt.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Replacematt,

Are you the artist formerly known as just plain Matt? If so, I am pleasantly surprised that you actually used a citation. I don't remember that ever happening before.

Who do you mean by "the narrator"? If you mean the OP he definitely did not stipulate that the delivery to the batter was not a quick pitch. He just described the situation he wanted to ask about. It was Mr. Richvee who raised the possibility that the pitch in question could be illegal and it was me who used the phrase "quick pitch."

The Wendelstedt definition you posted does not account for pitches that accidentally hit the bat nor does it account for a batter who is trying to protect his runner. 

All three codes use the following as part of their respective definition of the term "strike"--

A STRIKE is a legal pitch when so called by the umpire, which...(a) Is struck at by the batter and is missed;

There is no caution to the umpire to judge whether the batter meant his swing. I recall a thread about a minor league game where a pitch slipped from the pitcher's hand and as the ball rolled across a foul line about 10 feet from home plate the batter jokingly swung and the umpire called a strike. When everyone in the stadium sees a swing they expect the umpire to call it a strike.

 

 

 

[Replacematt]

2 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. Replacematt,

Are you the artist formerly known as just plain Matt? If so, I am pleasantly surprised that you actually used a citation. I don't remember that ever happening before.

Who do you mean by "the narrator"? If you mean the OP he definitely did not stipulate that the delivery to the batter was not a quick pitch. He just described the situation he wanted to ask about. It was Mr. Richvee who raised the possibility that the pitch in question could be illegal and it was me who used the phrase "quick pitch."

The Wendelstedt definition you posted does not account for pitches that accidentally hit the bat nor does it account for a batter who is trying to protect his runner. 

All three codes use the following as part of their respective definition of the term "strike"--

A STRIKE is a legal pitch when so called by the umpire, which...(a) Is struck at by the batter and is missed;

There is no caution to the umpire to judge whether the batter meant his swing. I recall a thread about a minor league game where a pitch slipped from the pitcher's hand and as the ball rolled across a foul line about 10 feet from home plate the batter jokingly swung and the umpire called a strike. When everyone in the stadium sees a swing they expect the umpire to call it a strike.

 

 

 

The narrator on the Facebook post that inspired this post here, of which was based on a video not included in that post.

This is not a strike. The batter did not even know there was a pitch. And the interpretation most certainly includes a requirement to judge if the batter meant their swing. Pitches that hit the bat are irrelevant to this conversation as we are dealing solely with whether the pitch was struck at.

And I'll leave it at that and leave once again, since your snark reminds me of one of the reasons I stopped coming here in the first place. 

[Tborze]

[Umpiresrock74]

On 2/18/2024 at 8:50 AM, Gary W Smith said:

Batter gets in the box and not looking at pitcher and takes a practice swing as pitcher pitches as his bat crosses the plain he is hit by the pitch is it a strike or HBP. I say Strike but there seems to be a disagreement on this issue

I think it would depend on the situation, was the ball put in play, did the pitcher balk, did the pitcher quick pitch, etc... If everything is legal on the pitchers side than I say strike. 

[Senor Azul]

From OBR 6.02(a)(5) Comment:  ...Umpires will judge a quick pitch as one delivered before the batter is reasonably set in the batter's box...The quick pitch is dangerous and should not be permitted.

The OP told us that the batter was "not looking at pitcher." Mr. JSam21 told us, "a kid looking at the ground doing a bat waggle." And then Mr. Replacematt told us, "The batter did not even know there was a pitch."

That sure sounds as if the batter was not reasonably set to me. The batter was not ready to receive the pitch and was hit by the pitch. That's dangerous! That's a quick pitch!

[beerguy55]

On 2/20/2024 at 11:44 AM, Replacematt said:

Quick pitch aside (as the video was not provided for discussion and the narrator stipulated that it was not...)

This is not a strike. A strike requires the batter to strike at the pitch, which requires an intentional attempt, per Wendelstedt.

The problem with this is there are many cases - especially at younger levels - where the batter swings with the intent to NOT hit the pitch (eg. on a steal play to hopefully distract the catcher).   That is indeed a swing, even though there was no "attempt to hit the pitch".

[Umpiresrock74]

On 2/22/2024 at 10:58 AM, Umpiresrock74 said:

I think it would depend on the situation, was the ball put in play, did the pitcher balk, did the pitcher quick pitch, etc... If everything is legal on the pitchers side than I say strike. 

Also, however though like mentioned below it really just depends on the situation. 

[beerguy55]

On 2/18/2024 at 6:50 AM, Gary W Smith said:

Batter gets in the box and not looking at pitcher and takes a practice swing as pitcher pitches as his bat crosses the plain he is hit by the pitch is it a strike or HBP. I say Strike but there seems to be a disagreement on this issue

This one is about perspective.

If the umpire sees a batter who is not looking at the pitcher he should be not allowing the pitch, and everything follows properly at that point.

However, if the umpire does not observe this, but instead observes a batter who is ready and allows the pitch, then he is going to see this as a swing.