Does the run count?

[RJD2]

2 outs, runner on third, 2 strikes on batter. Next pitch is breaking ball in dirt that batter takes half swing at and ball gets away from catcher. Runner from third scores but catcher appeals that batter went around on swing. Umpire calls strike 3 so batter takes off for first base. Catcher throws batter out at first for 3rd out well after runner from third scores. Does the run count? 

[Senor Azul]

No, the run does not count. Here's the Official Baseball Rules relevant rule:

Rule 5.08(a): ...EXCEPTION:  A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base;...

[beerguy55]

10 hours ago, RJD2 said:

2 outs, runner on third, 2 strikes on batter. Next pitch is breaking ball in dirt that batter takes half swing at and ball gets away from catcher. Runner from third scores but catcher appeals that batter went around on swing. Umpire calls strike 3 so batter takes off for first base. Catcher throws batter out at first for 3rd out well after runner from third scores. Does the run count? 

Coaching tip - coach your players to run in these scenarios.  Yes there is an (asinine) argument that this will convince the ump you did swing.   So what?   Nothing bad can come from this.

1. If the ball got far enough away for R3 to score it got far enough away for B/R to reach first, and the run counts.

2. If this somehow convinces the ump you swung, you get a free base, and the run counts.

3. If the ump was going to call the swing anyway, you get a free base, and the run counts.

4. If the ump calls no-swing you get another crack, and the run counts.

You notice a theme there?   Coach your team properly and this kind of situation/argument doesn't happen.

 

Yes, more advanced umpires will proactively ensure this swing/no-swing is announced, but that's out of your control.

[Vegas_Ump]

Some mechanics discussion for plate umpires:

I was doing a SW Regional game at the dish.  1 out, but there was R3 (only).  2-2 count.

Batter checks swing, but the ball gets away from F2.  In a flash, I went to U1 "Did he go?"   "Yes he did!"

I immediately pointed with my left arm that I had a U3K situation.  F2 gathered the ball and tagged the batter.  "On the tag, the batter is out!"

Clearly, the defense was well-coached to jump on the U3K right away.  But in the debrief, the UIC said it looked like U1 and I had practiced this for 6 months!  🙂  Can't emphasize teamwork too much.  It was important because any delay could have allowed R3 to score had F2 not been so astute.  Lacking a timely, definitive call could have become a festival.

Mike

Las Vegas

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

Some mechanics discussion for plate umpires:

I was doing a SW Regional game at the dish.  1 out, but there was R3 (only).  2-2 count.

Batter checks swing, but the ball gets away from F2.  In a flash, I went to U1 "Did he go?"   "Yes he did!"

I immediately pointed with my left arm that I had a U3K situation.  F2 gathered the ball and tagged the batter.  "On the tag, the batter is out!"

Clearly, the defense was well-coached to jump on the U3K right away.  But in the debrief, the UIC said it looked like U1 and I had practiced this for 6 months!  🙂  Can't emphasize teamwork too much.  It was important because any delay could have allowed R3 to score had F2 not been so astute.  Lacking a timely, definitive call could have become a festival.

Mike

Las Vegas

Where does the left arm point come from. MLB started a right arm point after the Eddings screwup. Some groups still do a safe signal but I haven't seen a left arm point. 

Do you subscribe to the "voluntary strike" mechanic?

[SeeingEyeDog]

2 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

Some mechanics discussion for plate umpires:

I was doing a SW Regional game at the dish.  1 out, but there was R3 (only).  2-2 count.

Batter checks swing, but the ball gets away from F2.  In a flash, I went to U1 "Did he go?"   "Yes he did!"

I immediately pointed with my left arm that I had a U3K situation.  F2 gathered the ball and tagged the batter.  "On the tag, the batter is out!"

Clearly, the defense was well-coached to jump on the U3K right away.  But in the debrief, the UIC said it looked like U1 and I had practiced this for 6 months!  🙂  Can't emphasize teamwork too much.  It was important because any delay could have allowed R3 to score had F2 not been so astute.  Lacking a timely, definitive call could have become a festival.

Mike

Las Vegas

This is just sublime, superb umpiring right here. Well done, brother...I had something very similar TWICE in the same pre-season scrimmage a few years back and was not as good on them as I wanted to be.

Bottom line...PU does NOT have to wait for an appeal on a check-swing with a U3K. If you have ANY doubt, come up right away and go to your partner and get his call. I have also added this to my pre-games..."Hey, if I have any doubt on a check-swing with U3K, I will come to you right away with no appeal from the defense so, please be ready for that."

~Dawg 

[Velho]

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

"Hey, if I have any doubt on a check-swing with U3K, I will come to you right away with no appeal from the defense so, please be ready for that."

Same here. Had a sweet one where batter fully squared around, pitch came into the box hitting him and I came up quick and big to BU. Killed any debate on offering vs trying to get out of the way. (It was sweet for us, not so much for the batter I guess  )

[Tborze]

On a U3K check swing, if I’m on the bases, you don’t have to ask. 

[beerguy55]

35 minutes ago, Tborze said:

On a U3K check swing, if I’m on the bases, you don’t have to ask. 

Only if he went, right?

[Tborze]

18 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Only if he went, right?

I thought that was implied in my response, U3K check swing, but yes! 

[Vegas_Ump]

23 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Where does the left arm point come from. MLB started a right arm point after the Eddings screwup. Some groups still do a safe signal but I haven't seen a left arm point. 

Do you subscribe to the "voluntary strike" mechanic?

Jimmy:  When I went to the WR Clinic in 2016, LL was working on a mechanic, and that's what they taught us.  They said that using the right hand might be confused as a strike call.  I did the tournament in 2017.  Likely at all OBR-based levels, there may have been some refinement since then.

Cheers!

Mike

Las Vegas

[Jimurray]

58 minutes ago, Vegas_Ump said:

Jimmy:  When I went to the WR Clinic in 2016, LL was working on a mechanic, and that's what they taught us.  They said that using the right hand might be confused as a strike call.  I did the tournament in 2017.  Likely at all OBR-based levels, there may have been some refinement since then.

Cheers!

Mike

Las Vegas

It is a specialized strike call for an uncaught strike.

[BigBlue4u]

3 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Jimmy:  When I went to the WR Clinic in 2016, LL was working on a mechanic, and that's what they taught us.  They said that using the right hand might be confused as a strike call.

It only happened once in my entire career with a bit of a different take.  It was my first couple of years umpiring.  It was a close call for a half-swing.  The umpire pointed toward first base with his right hand.  I thought he wanted help on the half-swing.  I called a strike.  Unfortunately, he was pointing the batter to first base on ball four.  Fortunately, the defensive coach bought the plate umpires explanation about the mix-up.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, BigBlue4u said:

It only happened once in my entire career with a bit of a different take.  It was my first couple of years umpiring.  It was a close call for a half-swing.  The umpire pointed toward first base with his right hand.  I thought he wanted help on the half-swing.  I called a strike.  Unfortunately, he was pointing the batter to first base on ball four.  Fortunately, the defensive coach bought the plate umpires explanation about the mix-up.

You hadn't been trained yet that "did he go" is with the left hand? Or did your plate just think that if Joe West does it he can do it. When you get casual with mechanics an MLB ump can say no he didn't on his plate right arm strike signal. Actually happened.

Did the batter not know where 1B was and that he gets it on ball 4. We eliminate that rec ball mechanic in our training but most of the newbies used the left hand when we ask the question, "how do you award 1B on ball 4?" After they do all this stupid pointing we give them the proper mechanic "ball 4" and ask them if they know of players that don't know where 1B is and don't know they get it. But I get where it comes from in rec ball. I myself have had to point an 8 year old to 1B on ball 4 

[beerguy55]

On 2/17/2024 at 9:50 AM, Tborze said:

I thought that was implied in my response, U3K check swing, but yes! 

Not implied at all, in fact, the opposite - by definition, on a check(ed) swing the batter did NOT go.

Was just making sure you're only volunteering if you saw a swing (ie. he did not check his swing).   In case some newer umpires think this is a great idea, get overzealous and volunteer a no/safe signal before the plate umpire has had a chance to indicate the batter did swing.

[Velho]

On 2/17/2024 at 12:15 PM, Jimurray said:

On 2/17/2024 at 11:12 AM, Vegas_Ump said:

Jimmy:  When I went to the WR Clinic in 2016, LL was working on a mechanic, and that's what they taught us.  They said that using the right hand might be confused as a strike call.  I did the tournament in 2017.  Likely at all OBR-based levels, there may have been some refinement since then.

Cheers!

Mike

Las Vegas

Expand  

It is a specialized strike call for an uncaught strike.

Last November WR taught us right arm straight out closed fist for U3K.

This is what's on the LL website

https://www.littleleague.org/university/articles/uncaught-third-strike-no-catch/#:~:text=The “Uncaught Third Strike” Mechanic,base unoccupied or two outs.

[Aging_Arbiter]

well, in that link, you can clearly see that the umpire is pointing with a finger......not a closed fist.

[Velho]

10 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

well, in that link, you can clearly see that the umpire is pointing with a finger......not a closed fist.

To steal a phrase "Trying to understand why LL isn't aligned top to bottom.... is like trying to smell the color 9" 

😉

[BigBlue4u]

On 2/17/2024 at 5:30 PM, Jimurray said:

You hadn't been trained yet that "did he go" is with the left hand? Or did your plate just think that if Joe West does it he can do it. When you get casual with mechanics an MLB ump can say no he didn't on his plate right arm strike signal. Actually happened.

Did the batter not know where 1B was and that he gets it on ball 4. We eliminate that rec ball mechanic in our training but most of the newbies used the left hand when we ask the question, "how do you award 1B on ball 4?" After they do all this stupid pointing we give them the proper mechanic "ball 4" and ask them if they know of players that don't know where 1B is and don't know they get it. But I get where it comes from in rec ball. I myself have had to point an 8 year old to 1B on ball 4 

You are right.  Second year in umpiring and I had not yet been trained.  I don't know where pointing to first base on ball four started, but I can assure you I never did that.  And, I do agree with you.  In the hundreds of games I have umpired ranging from D1 to Little League, I never saw a batter advance to third base on ball four.  🙂