Pop up hits fair just beyond 1st; skips back and crosses foul line before 1st!

[buckyswider]

I may have had this happen last night.  first and second, no out.  really high pop up down near first base.  I call "infield fly, if fair!".  1Bman totally whiffs on the ball and it hits either just before, even with, or just beyond the 1B bag, about 3 feet on the fair side of the line.  Ball had a nasty spin, and it kicked backwards and toward the foul line.  Ball ends up going over the foul line before first base.  

This was a USA softball coed rules game, but i imagine the interpretation would be similar in all codes.  From my vantage point behind home plate, i really couldn't tell precisely where the ball landed (and truthfully i didn't even consider the conundrum at the time), so I just called it foul and that was that.

If that ball had clearly landed beyond the base, should I have ruled it a fair ball (and, in this situation, batter out?)  

[Senor Azul]

From the 2023 USA Softball rule book:

FAIR BALL: A legally batted ball that:

F. First falls or is first touched on or over fair territory beyond first, second or third base.

[buckyswider]

I present the counterpoint:

FOUL BALL: A batted ball that:

A. Settles or is touched (not caught) on or over foul territory between home and first
base or between home and third base.

To be transparent, your "fair" call makes more sense to me considering the inverse:  a ball hits a few feet past first or third in foul territory, then spins back toward home and fair territory and ends up settling in fair territory before the respective base.  That's intuitively a foul ball as soon as it touches down.  

 

I can find no internet references of my situation (with the ball clearly touching past the base) on the interwebs.  Probably a one in a million play.  

[The Man in Blue]

[Senor Azul]

From the 2023 USA Softball rule book:

FOUL BALL:  A batted ball that:

E. First hits the ground over foul territory beyond first or third base.

2023 NFHS baseball case book:

2.5.1 Situation c B1 hits a fly ball that comes down on foul ground (a) between home and first or (b) beyond first. In each case, before it has touched anyone, it rolls to fair ground first, where it is then fielded or lies on the ground. RULING:  In (a), it is a fair ball. In (b), it is a foul ball.

[maven]

I can't help with the judgment part of this call: without video (probably requiring just the right angle), it's not possible to know at this point whether the ball landed beyond 1B. That is crucial for getting this right, and the umpire has to make the call in the moment. When in doubt, it was not past 1B.

As for the rule: supposing the ball landed in fair past 1B (which is the difficult case, other cases left as an exercise), its status as a batted ball instantly and irrevocably goes from indeterminate to fair. It satisfies the definition of a fair ball.

No matter what happens to it as a result of spin, bouncing off a base or player, or other weird bounces or spins, it's a fair ball for the rest of time. Spinning back in front of 1B and going foul does not change its status, any more than spinning foul in the outfield changes its status—even if it also bounces into the stands. Fair ball.

It does not satisfy the definition of a foul ball when it spins back and into foul in front of 1B because the rule applies to a batted ball of indeterminate status. This one is already a fair ball. It can't go back.

[buckyswider]

Good  Great points!  And sleeping on it, thanks to Senor Azul's gentle coaxing, I have solidly come down on that side of the line (pun definitely intended!) also.

I also tried to justify to myself why I called this "one in a million", because surely it's not unfathomable that a ball can react the way this one did.  But the anomalous part here is that it remained uncaught/untouched.  Surely a ball hit high enough to have that kind of action after it hits the ground will give a fielder ample opportunity to at least have it clank off of his/her glove.  But not this time!

Adding to the my uncertainty "in the moment" is that that demarcation point- did the ball hit before or after the base?- is not one we're ever called to judge on other than balls *right* on the line, where it's obvious.  So that line of thinking never entered my lil' brain.  Would anyone else immediately have thought to gauge precisely where the ball landed?  

And yeah, unless it's obvious that it's past the bag, I would stick with "it didn't", because if this one confused me at first, I'm certain you'll have ejections from the defense after you rule this a hit because it *just* reached the baseline before popping foul!!  

Thanks for the discussion all.  

[Mussgrass]

2 hours ago, maven said:

I can't help with the judgment part of this call: without video (probably requiring just the right angle), it's not possible to know at this point whether the ball landed beyond 1B. That is crucial for getting this right, and the umpire has to make the call in the moment. When in doubt, it was not past 1B.

As for the rule: supposing the ball landed in fair past 1B (which is the difficult case, other cases left as an exercise), its status as a batted ball instantly and irrevocably goes from indeterminate to fair. It satisfies the definition of a fair ball.

No matter what happens to it as a result of spin, bouncing off a base or player, or other weird bounces or spins, it's a fair ball for the rest of time. Spinning back in front of 1B and going foul does not change its status, any more than spinning foul in the outfield changes its status—even if it also bounces into the stands. Fair ball.

It does not satisfy the definition of a foul ball when it spins back and into foul in front of 1B because the rule applies to a batted ball of indeterminate status. This one is already a fair ball. It can't go back.

 

See the part I bolded. The batter would be out on the IFF. Would this then be a 2 base award for the base runners? 

[The Man in Blue]

I agree with the decisions being made (foul ball is the "safe" call even if it isn't the right call; call it fair if it is obvious) ... but have we found another flaw in the books?

A fair ball is a ball that touches in fair territory after the base and, in most circumstances, before the base (but that isn't what we are looking at).  We know if it skips into foul past the base it stays fair.  Makes sense.  

But the definition of a foul ball does not provide any deference to a previously fair ball.  It states that the ball (under the prescribed circumstances) comes to rest (or is touched) in foul territory before the base.  

A bunted ball (or squib) rolling down the line is fair until it is no longer fair, and then it is foul.  So the status can change.  (The smart umpire will not signal something until it is something, but nonetheless ...)

 

[Velho]

39 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

but have we found another flaw in the books?

Fair comes before Foul in the definitions. Problem solved. 😉

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Mussgrass, I found a FED online case play that might be helpful. It is in the 2018 interpretations in Situation 17. I cannot copy and paste so perhaps someone will.

The scenario has a declared infield fly deflect off the first baseman's glove and the ball goes into a dugout. The ruling is all runners are awarded two bases.

[Velho]

33 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

FED online case play that might be helpful. It is in the 2018 interpretations in Situation 17

SITUATION 17: With the bases load- ed and one out, the batter hits a high pop fly that is properly declared to be an infield fly. The ball glances off the first baseman’s glove over fair territo- ry and bounces into the first-base dug- out. RULING: The ball is dead and the batter is declared out. The runners from third base and second base are awarded home, and the runner from first base is awarded third base. (2-5-1f, 2-19-1, 5-1-1f, 8-3-3c, 8-4-1j)

https://nsaa-static.s3.amazonaws.com/textfile/base/baseinterp.pdf

[beerguy55]

A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base, or that touches first, second or third base, or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, or that, while on or over fair territory touches the person of an umpire or player, or that, while over fair territory, passes out of the playing field in flight.

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles  on foul territory between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

 

These definitions are easily correctible  to apply the "common sense" understanding most of us have anyway...otherwise, fundamentalists and/or literalists will have challenges reconciling these two definitions, because any ball that is on or over both fair and foul territory is both a fair and foul ball at the same time - taken literally.

Two options are below - my changes in red:

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles completely on foul territory between home and first base or between home and third base and has not first touched fair territory beyond first or third base, or that bounds past first or third base completely on or over foul territory, or that first falls completely on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while completely on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

OR

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that is not fair.

[Jimurray]

3 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base, or that touches first, second or third base, or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, or that, while on or over fair territory touches the person of an umpire or player, or that, while over fair territory, passes out of the playing field in flight.

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles  on foul territory between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

 

These definitions are easily correctible  to apply the "common sense" understanding most of us have anyway...otherwise, fundamentalists and/or literalists will have challenges reconciling these two definitions, because any ball that is on or over both fair and foul territory is both a fair and foul ball at the same time - taken literally.

Two options are below - my changes in red:

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles completely on foul territory between home and first base or between home and third base and has not first touched fair territory beyond first or third base, or that bounds past first or third base completely on or over foul territory, or that first falls completely on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while completely on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

OR

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that is not fair.

Until MLB adopts your changes @Velho's rationale works. Give someone who has never known about baseball the rulebook and ask them to rule foul or fair on the ambiguous case of the ball straddling the line before the base and ask them to rule by reading the book until they find an answer. They will find the Fair definition and rule fair for you and stop reading so they won't discover the conflict.

[Velho]

19 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

because any ball that is on or over both fair and foul territory is both a fair and foul ball at the same time

Huh. I'd always thought cats didn't like baseball.

[beerguy55]

2 minutes ago, Velho said:

Huh. I'd always thought cats didn't like baseball.

Schrodinger loved baseball.

[The Man in Blue]

36 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Schrodinger loved baseball.

He also did not love baseball.

[The Man in Blue]

2 hours ago, Velho said:

Fair comes before Foul in the definitions. Problem solved. 😉

"Out" comes before "safe", too.  Sounds good until you realize somebody's got to score a run somehow.  😉

[The Man in Blue]

52 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Until MLB adopts your changes @Velho's rationale works. Give someone who has never known about baseball the rulebook and ask them to rule foul or fair on the ambiguous case of the ball straddling the line before the base and ask them to rule by reading the book until they find an answer. They will find the Fair definition and rule fair for you and stop reading so they won't discover the conflict.

The Jurassic Park (book!) problem.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

The Jurassic Park (book!) problem.

Let's see if there are any other nerds that get this one.

[MadMax]

5 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

A bunted ball (or squib) rolling down the line is fair until it is no longer fair, and then it is foul.  So the status can change.  (The smart umpire will not signal something until it is something, but nonetheless ...)

Incorrect, according to Umpire School / training protocols. A BU is instructed / trained / taught to determine the batted ball as Fair once it: 

1. Is touched by a fielder in fair territory (which includes on or over the line), or… 
2. Comes to rest in fair territory (incl. lines) before the base, or… 
3. Bounds by (in fair territory) or over the base, or hits / touches the base. 

On this last point, it is implied that there is a threshold plane from the front edge of the base extending to 2B; thus, if a ball bounds thru this plane, it is Fair. It is also implied that there is an ethereal “pylon” or column above the base, such that if a ball bounds over the base (and thru the column), it is Fair. 

We are to determine this first and promptly, once one of those criteria are met. Additionally, on fly balls (or liners) past the base (and that planar threshold), once it touches in Fair territory, it is Fair. There is no “takesy-backsies”, or undoing. 

Thus, if the batted ball was determined to be fair, past the planar threshold, then regardless of where it goes, it remains Fair. 

So this OP situation wasn’t a correct / incorrect one, it was merely lacking determination… 

… which is one of the pitfalls of working solo.

[maven]

20 hours ago, Mussgrass said:

See the part I bolded. The batter would be out on the IFF. Would this then be a 2 base award for the base runners? 

The 2-base award for a fair ball that leaves the field not-in-flight applies to all runners: "Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance..."

So yes, in this developing world play, it is possible for the BR to be out on an IFF and other runners to receive a 2-base award.