Revenge of the Baseball Gods

[MarsOmega]

Wow... Ok....

I worked a Little League Minors game tonight in Rochester. It was 85 degrees at the time of the game which I know is not that hot for you southern folks but for us, thats hot.

Inbetween the top of the 1st and the bottom of the 1st I asked a catcher to wear a mask with a throat guard. While I was waiting for the coach to find one, A fan who was situated behind the plate fence started making comments. The ones I completely ignored were: "Where are your parents" (I'm 18 thanks) "You need to calm down" and "You're horrible". After the comment: "You probably have never kissed a girl" I gave him a look and then continued waiting. Then this happened: He says "You've probably have a very small (insert inaproppriate male appendage)" At that point I went over to the coach and said that we wern't going to play until the fan left. After some complaining the man went to the parking lot. 

In the 2nd inning he comes back just like a boomerang. I make the coach make him leave again.

The rest of the game goes on without a hitch.... or so I thought haha.

After the game, I grab my water bottles and make a break for my car. My dad was picking me up since he had a game as well. As I am taking off my gear and putting it in the back of the car, the guy storms up to me cursing, calling me very interesting names and threating me. Now I'm 5'6" and weigh 120lbs. So I was a wuss and yelled for my dad to get out of the car. After I got the rest of my stuff I went and sat in the passenger seat. This guy continues cursing, calling my father names and threating him. He snaps a picture of the guy and he runs off. We leave.

So I guess my worst fear in umpiring came true. A disgruntled fan waited for me in the parking lot.

[The Man in Blue]

Please tell me you filed a police report and had a lengthy conversation with the organization that hired you.

That was beyond inappropriate in the first few comments.   

[SeeingEyeDog]

@MarsOmega, I'm glad you're ok. I have not had this "pleasure" yet, but I know my turn will come...

Yeah, we don't work games with spectators disrespecting us like that. Nice work getting the coach involved and keep putting it on them. If they can't get the person to stay away from the field for the remainder of the game, tell the coaches you are suspending the game, make a note of the score, the count and the baserunners if you can...and then get off the field. Maybe it's a fan of one of the teams, maybe it's not. Maybe the coach or coaches can deal with it, maybe they can't...doesn't matter, that's not what we signed up for.

Once you are in a safe location (which may not be the parking lot!), contact the police, call your UIC, assignor and or league leadership and give them a full report. Since you got a picture, get that over to them, too. Many states and local jurisdictions have specific laws on the books regarding citizen conduct and actions towards sports officials. If the game was played at a public park or public school, I would recommend having your superiors contact the park authority or school authority or whomever has operational authority of that field so they know they had a disruptive person on their grounds. This whole thing smells like it could escalate if the person goes unchecked. There's only so much you can do of course...so, make sure you do it.

As for engaging your father in this situation? Sons and daughters never stop being sons and daughters and mothers and fathers never stop being mothers and fathers. There is always safety in numbers. You were correct to alert your father and he was correct to engage. Anyone who says otherwise is misinformed and wrong.

~Dawg

[eddieq]

Definitely if you haven’t already you need to file a police report and include the photo. This “fan” needs to at least be barred from this park. 

Don’t worry about asking your dad for help. My dad is 83. I still need him sometimes and my kids in their 20’s still need me. 

Good job

[ArchAngel72]

Talk to whomever your assignor is and also the league President or VP.

 

Tell them that unless that fan is banned from ANY and ALL  the LL parks you will no longer do games for them as that was an unsafe person at a game. 

 

The coaches alone should not stand for that person being there.   I find it abhorrent that the coaches allowed that to go on.

 

You as a young Umpire I feel horrible you had to go thru that.

Best luck going forward.  

 

[beerguy55]

This may be inappropriate, but I honestly have no issue with beating the SH*# out of this guy with a baseball bat.  If you're threatened you're threatened.  You do what you need to to protect yourself...whether that's physically doing it yourself, or finding your larger more experienced father.  Absolutely nothing wrong with your choice and don't think twice about it.  At 18, 19, 20, 21... I'd have done the same thing.  

It's a ball park...I always had a bat in my trunk at the ball park (if it wasn't in my equipment bag).  And even as a coach, and sometimes player, I would get the occasional idiot want to follow me to the car.

I never had to beat anybody...casually just picking up a baseball bat out of my trunk tended to de-escalate the conversation.  Didn't even have to say anything.

This, to me, is exactly what Stand Your Ground laws are for.  I'm trying not to advocate violence...there are often many better choices -  I'm simply saying when you are threatened that every choice is on the table and don't ever feel bad about how you got yourself out of the situation.

We see lots of videos of people attacking umpires, and the effect is umpires are quitting, and prospective umpires aren't starting...I wonder what the reaction would be if we started seeing videos of umpires breaking coach's kneecaps...

Asking for a friend.

[MarsOmega]

1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Tell them that unless that fan is banned from ANY and ALL  the LL parks you will no longer do games for them as that was an unsafe person at a game. 

 

The coaches alone should not stand for that person being there.   I find it abhorrent that the coaches allowed that to go on.

I reported the incident immediatly to the president of the league who also happens to be the assignor. I know him well. They are in the process of banning him from all games in our three league orginization. 

As for the coaches, they were lovely during the game. They understood that their fan could not say such things at a little league game and needed to leave. They told me that he has caused trouble at other games and I was right to chuck him. I leaft the game immediatly after it ended as I usually do. The way this field is, there is a large dirt berm that obscures the parking lot. There was nothing they could do about the incident after the game.

[eddieq]

It's good that the assignors and all are working on banning him from the parks.  You still (if you haven't already) should make a police report.  This guy stalked you (waited in the parking lot for you) and was threatening you.  The police need to be notified and at least get his name down on a report.  If/when he does it again, that shows a history of behavior and can be taken into account.

Also don't worry about any, "I don't want to see his record tarnished, blah blah" that some people would say.  Screw him.  You are not responsible for his behavior and he clearly has gotten away with it in the past and will continue to do stuff like this until he's held to account.  Not saying he needs to go to prison, but he does need to have this kind of thing on his record.

[834k3r]

2 hours ago, MarsOmega said:

I reported the incident immediatly to the president of the league who also happens to be the assignor. I know him well. They are in the process of banning him from all games in our three league orginization.

 

1 hour ago, eddieq said:

It's good that the assignors and all are working on banning him from the parks.  You still (if you haven't already) should make a police report.  This guy stalked you (waited in the parking lot for you) and was threatening you.  The police need to be notified and at least get his name down on a report.  If/when he does it again, that shows a history of behavior and can be taken into account.

Also don't worry about any, "I don't want to see his record tarnished, blah blah" that some people would say.  Screw him.  You are not responsible for his behavior and he clearly has gotten away with it in the past and will continue to do stuff like this until he's held to account.  Not saying he needs to go to prison, but he does need to have this kind of thing on his record.

The fact the oxygen thief that was harassing you felt like he could do that shows he's been more than likely doing it to other umpires who have turned the other cheek and allowed the behavior. If a police report isn't filed there's no history if this idiot continues and escalates his poor behavior.

Good job by making your stand on the field; now complete your stand by filing the police report.

[wolfe_man]

I've tried to remain silent on this, but I can't.  I'm afraid we're starting to drop down to the level of the opposition and get in the mud with them - and I think we need to be better than that personally.

Here's the other side of this story (possibly / hypothetically).  

Let's imagine the guy had a terrible day.  His wife left him and drained his banking account.  Her new boyfriend is an umpire that drives a large lifted 4x4 truck.  This poor guy is trying to keep it together and shows up for his kids game at the local LL - with an attitude and an axe to grind.  He's in a foul mood at everyone and everything upsets him.   (None of you have ever been there, right?)

He gets out of line.  Instead of having good sense, he doubles down.  He's taken it all day and now he has picked you (the umpire) as his object to take it all out on and get even.  You toss him, he comes back looking for more... then waits to tell you whatever he thinks is so important in the parking lot post-game.   In his mind, he just wants someone to respect him and listen to his anger.  (I'm not condoning the behavior or the language the man used, but sometimes we need to look past things on the surface to find the real issues.)

Should this one game define him for the rest of his life?  If we insist on filing police reports every time someone talks harshly to us, what will become of our society?  If we resort to beating the life out of the morons that dare to cross a perceived line of decency, are we any better than the fans?   They speak harsh to us, so we ruin their lives.  If they hit us, we want to put them in jail and they end up losing their job.  I don't think any of our reactions to their actions are fixing the real problem here - do you?

The man was out of line and you addressed it.  If you truly felt threatened for your safety, then do what you feel is necessary to defend yourself (i.e. call your father to step out, call the police to help you out, etc.).  I'd say it's fine to speak with the league so that they're aware, but the police report that you are being pressured to do is completely your choice.  I'd err on the side of caution there personally, because the last thing i want on my conscience is making a permanent stain on someone's record that didn't really need to be there.  I've been falsely accused before and it leaves a really bad taste in your mouth for a long time.  Did this guy really earn a police report? I wasn't there, perhaps he did - but YOU have to make that call, not any of us who weren't anywhere near this situation.

As a CCW holder, we were taught that you can't just go around shooting people who threaten you - or you may feel threatened by.  You must first try to get away or defuse the situation, you only shoot someone as a last resort.  I know it's an apples-and-oranges thing, but I think we need to be careful we don't run to the police every time a parent or fan or coach gets out of line.  Eventually, we're going to be putting people in jail for daring to say we missed a call if things keep progressing like they are now.  They overreact, so instead of calming things down and taking a pause and a step back - we up the ante by overreacting and killing all comments and spectators.

While I understand there is a lack of respect for officials, are we helping them to give said respect by earning it OR are we giving them a reason to disrespect our profession more?  It's a fair question that I really believe we all need to ask ourselves.  I was taught that respect is earned, not given - but if you don't give it, then you shouldn't expect to receive it either.  

Perhaps it would behoove us all to take a moment and do some self-reflection.  What we are seeing on the ball fields of America is a direct effect of the causes of our overall society.  We have an opportunity as umpires to show a better way forward, to take the high road and show people how to be civil when in disagreement - or - we can do what our politicians do and attempt to destroy anyone who gets in our way.

Don't get me wrong, to be clear, when ones cross the line there needs to be punishment.  When anyone hits an official, that is assault and needs dealt with accordingly.  I just think perhaps we can help to tone things down instead of adding fuel to the fire and getting ready to go to war each time an official hints at being treated poorly.  I've been followed to my car, I've felt threatened and it upset me at the time - but as I meditated on the whole situation I found opportunities where I can be better as a human being & as an umpire and I found compassion in my heart for those that were so angry/upset with me due to a decision that I made (a call they didn't like).  Think about it: How bad does your day have to be to make you want to go and yell at someone who is trying their best to officiate a kids game?  Sometimes a little perspective can go a long way.

I'm off my soapbox and I hope you receive this in the spirit it was written (non-judgmental but soul-searching).

[BrainFreeze]

@wolfe_man, your comment is excellent and well-taken.  So of course I disagree completely with it 😀

Assume that what you've supposed is in fact what happened.  Guy has day from Hell, gf left him for an umpire, and everything boils over all at once and @MarsOmega is unlucky enough to be standing there. 

Yes -- defuse, de-escalate, do whatever needs to be done to get out of that situation safely.  But absolutely call the league, call the police, and press charges.  

If our friend is really having a bad day, and this is a one-off situation, let him have his day in court.  Courts have discretion, and they are sympathetic if someone really merits "a break".  They can mandate counseling, they can send him to anger management, etc.  They have tools to let him demonstrate that it really was just a day from Hell, and he's really not that person. 

All of which can be done without a permanent criminal record.  

If, on the other hand, the guy really is an a-hole, let the courts deal with him the way he deserves to be dealt with. 

Police report needs to be filed here.  The guy obviously had some issues, and if he wasn't in the system already, he needs to be.  Just like when we eject a coach from a game, the coach has done it to himself, we're just pointing to the exit. 

 

[BrainFreeze]

3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

This may be inappropriate, but I honestly have no issue with beating the SH*# out of this guy with a baseball bat.  If you're threatened you're threatened.  You do what you need to to protect yourself...whether that's physically doing it yourself, or finding your larger more experienced father.  Absolutely nothing wrong with your choice and don't think twice about it.  At 18, 19, 20, 21... I'd have done the same thing.  

It's a ball park...I always had a bat in my trunk at the ball park (if it wasn't in my equipment bag).  And even as a coach, and sometimes player, I would get the occasional idiot want to follow me to the car.

I never had to beat anybody...casually just picking up a baseball bat out of my trunk tended to de-escalate the conversation.  Didn't even have to say anything.

This, to me, is exactly what Stand Your Ground laws are for.  I'm trying not to advocate violence...there are often many better choices -  I'm simply saying when you are threatened that every choice is on the table and don't ever feel bad about how you got yourself out of the situation.

We see lots of videos of people attacking umpires, and the effect is umpires are quitting, and prospective umpires aren't starting...I wonder what the reaction would be if we started seeing videos of umpires breaking coach's kneecaps...

Asking for a friend.

What an awful take.  This sounds like Internet Tough Guy syndrome. 

How about you casually pick up a bat out of your trunk while some guy is yelling at you and you get five or six new holes in your chest because Stand Your Ground? 

Wonder what the reaction to that video would be? 

 

[The Man in Blue]

While I am not going to the extreme of @beerguy55, I am going to say that @wolfe_man’s reply was bit too far the other direction.

What this person did WAS assault.  This was not speaking ill, disagreeing with a call, or even being belligerent.  This was assault.  A police report absolutely needs to be filed — but yes, that is the OP’s call.  Whatever his motive was and whatever his punishment should be, that is for the police and the courts to decide, not us.

At risk of sounding too kooky, your comments come from a place of privilege that many others are not afforded.  I am glad that many people in history did not just suck it up and let it be.  That which we allow, we condone.

Leave it alone and it escalates more the next time.  Interceding now may get the guy some help before he comes back and decides to drive his car onto the field and runs over a few kids and an umpire he didn’t like.

[eddieq]

Respectfully to @wolfe_man I do disagree here with that line of thinking.  Just over in the war stories forum about midway down there is a thread about an umpire "brutally assaulted" by someone who had been a problem at previous games.

 

On 5/5/2023 at 1:48 PM, Mad Mike said:

Another sad chapter in an Umpire being assaulted in Florida.

Sounds like he was an asshat at previous games. Too bad nobody stepped up and banned this guy before he injured the umpire.

Video shows dad knocking out umpire at son’s baseball game | Watch (msn.com)

Get it on the record.  Nip it in the bud.  As @The Man in Blue pointed out, the courts and all can sort out if he should have a permanent blot or be given remedial civics lessons.

[Velho]

@MarsOmega As all have said, your call but two things that I'd consider

- You have additional information this was not an isolated incident

- From (non-ump) experience, getting something on the record is of value. My in-laws had an issue that we let go. When it escalated to the 22 yr old neighbor chest kicking my 75 yr old fused-back, replaced-knee father in law to the ground (on video) the DA asked us why "we didn't call authorities earlier" (prior incidents were not remotely close to this one). That set us back in getting a TRO and he got probation (which he's since violated with a fresh charge well beyond the severity of the above). My (biased and cynical) gut is that if we didn't have the video it would have been dismissed entirely. A prior incident on the record may have changed that. Something to consider in a similar fashion as you ejecting coaches now is paying it forward to future umpires.

@wolfe_man's call for grace has it's place - which is for each of us to decide what that place is in any given situation.

 

[beerguy55]

49 minutes ago, BrainFreeze said:

What an awful take.  This sounds like Internet Tough Guy syndrome. 

How about you casually pick up a bat out of your trunk while some guy is yelling at you and you get five or six new holes in your chest because Stand Your Ground? 

Wonder what the reaction to that video would be? 

 

Could be...but it's a bit silly to posit that you shouldn't defend yourself because you might get shot.  If you feel threatened (or are actually being assaulted - and what is described in the OP is assault...in all 50 states) should you worry about being further assaulted as a result of defending yourself?  You're defending yourself because you are in danger...if you don't think you're in danger you have no need to defend yourself.  If I'm really worried about that secondary retaliation when I want to defend myself, then reaching into my trunk for a bat OR calling my dad from the front seat should theoretically generate the same retaliation....my only choice would be to curl in the fetal position and hope for the best.

I'm not talking about dick measuring or chest puffing...I'm talking about alleviating a real threat.   And I stand by what I said before, if you feel threatened, if you truly believe you are in danger, ANY option to resolve that situation is on the table.   

And if you get out of it without any bloodshed, then the cops need to be called. Again...it's assault. Maybe it's a one of...maybe it's his MO.  Not for you to decide.   The courts can then decide if there are mitigating circumstances as raised by @wolfe_man  If all the guy needs is treatment and he's all better, so be it.

[BigBlue4u]

On 5/31/2023 at 10:21 AM, wolfe_man said:

Should this one game define him for the rest of his life?

It very well may.  Wolfe Man, I admire your perspective on this, but it sounds like making excuses for ill-mannered behavior.  I am not responsible for this guy's behavior, and you are not responsible for this guy's behavior.  He is responsible for his behavior.   Let him suffer the consequences.

[Maineac]

On 5/31/2023 at 3:54 PM, beerguy55 said:

Could be...but it's a bit silly to posit that you shouldn't defend yourself because you might get shot.  If you feel threatened (or are actually being assaulted - and what is described in the OP is assault...in all 50 states) should you worry about being further assaulted as a result of defending yourself?  You're defending yourself because you are in danger...if you don't think you're in danger you have no need to defend yourself.  If I'm really worried about that secondary retaliation when I want to defend myself, then reaching into my trunk for a bat OR calling my dad from the front seat should theoretically generate the same retaliation....my only choice would be to curl in the fetal position and hope for the best.

I'm not talking about dick measuring or chest puffing...I'm talking about alleviating a real threat.   And I stand by what I said before, if you feel threatened, if you truly believe you are in danger, ANY option to resolve that situation is on the table.   

And if you get out of it without any bloodshed, then the cops need to be called. Again...it's assault. Maybe it's a one of...maybe it's his MO.  Not for you to decide.   The courts can then decide if there are mitigating circumstances as raised by @wolfe_man  If all the guy needs is treatment and he's all better, so be it.

Not assault in all 50 states. Terrorizing or criminal threatening in mine. But both are still misdemeanors. 

[Catch18]

and what is described in the OP is assault...in all 50 states)

That’s not even close to being true.

[mw94]

You are  your own 1st responder. When seconds count the police are minutes away

[beerguy55]

On 6/3/2023 at 12:05 PM, Catch18 said:

 

That’s not even close to being true.

 

 

On 6/3/2023 at 9:51 AM, Maineac said:

Not assault in all 50 states. Terrorizing or criminal threatening in mine. But both are still misdemeanors. 

OK fine...many/most states class it as a form of assault, or treat it as such.    Even if they do have it as a separate crime.  Many states have both felony and misdemeanor levels of threats, like assaults.   Much of the time, misdemeanor threats and misdemeanor assault carry the same sentence.  

The point was, it's illegal, can put you in jail, and threatening to punch someone can often get you the same penalty as actually punching someone....even going away for a year.  Treat a threat as you would assault.  

I'm surprised by the number of people in the US, and Canada, who think threats are protected by free speech, and therefore think they can't do anything if someone "only" threatens them. 

And it rarely (if ever) matters if the person making the threat has any intent to carry it through...it typically only matters what the victim believes.  

[Maineac]

20 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

 

OK fine...many/most states class it as a form of assault, or treat it as such.    Even if they do have it as a separate crime.  Many states have both felony and misdemeanor levels of threats, like assaults.   Much of the time, misdemeanor threats and misdemeanor assault carry the same sentence.  

The point was, it's illegal, can put you in jail, and threatening to punch someone can often get you the same penalty as actually punching someone....even going away for a year.  Treat a threat as you would assault.  

I'm surprised by the number of people in the US, and Canada, who think threats are protected by free speech, and therefore think they can't do anything if someone "only" threatens them. 

And it rarely (if ever) matters if the person making the threat has any intent to carry it through...it typically only matters what the victim believes.  

Agreed👍