Dropped third strike

[Guest Jason Phillips]

2 outs, bases loaded. Dropped third strike. Catcher throws the ball to shortstop, who tags runner in baseline going to third. Runner from 3 scores before tag is made on base runner going to third. Is that considered a timing play?

[beerguy55]

23 minutes ago, Guest Jason Phillips said:

2 outs, bases loaded. Dropped third strike. Catcher throws the ball to shortstop, who tags runner in baseline going to third. Runner from 3 scores before tag is made on base runner going to third. Is that considered a timing play?

"Force" is a status applied to the runner.   It does not apply to the fielder, the ball, or the method in which the runner was put out.

 

If the runner is forced when put out then the appropriate rules around runs scored on the third out apply.

[834k3r]

Depends.

Was there a runner on 1B that forced the runner to go to 3B? If there was, it's a force out and no time play. If there was a runner on 2B only, it is a time play.

[SH0102]

6 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

Depends.

Was there a runner on 1B that forced the runner to go to 3B? If there was, it's a force out and no time play. If there was a runner on 2B only, it is a time play.

He said bases loaded.

Runner was forced to advance, so third out is a force, no run scores.

As an aside, in what world does a C throw to SS in middle of Diamond instead of stepping on home or throwing to first?

[noumpere]

11 minutes ago, Guest Jason Phillips said:

2 outs, bases loaded. Dropped third strike. Catcher throws the ball to shortstop, who tags runner in baseline going to third. Runner from 3 scores before tag is made on base runner going to third. Is that considered a timing play?

 

6 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

Depends.

Was there a runner on 1B that forced the runner to go to 3B? If there was, it's a force out and no time play. If there was a runner on 2B only, it is a time play.

"tagging the runner" and "time play" are not synonyms.

A force play (or force out) depends on the runner's status, not on the actions of the defence.

 

In the OP, it was a force out, and no run scores.

[834k3r]

1 minute ago, SH0102 said:

He said bases loaded.

Yep--you're right. Mea culpa.

[SH0102]

1 minute ago, 834k3r said:

Yep--you're right. Mea culpa.

Happens to us all

[Blue 5]

Am I reading this right? My simple understanding of the rule is, on a dropped third strike with 1st base occupied, there is no put of of the batter/runner. Batter out, there's nothing further to the play.
I've read it several times and not sure what I'm missing?

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[maven]

15 minutes ago, Blue 5 said:

Am I reading this right? My simple understanding of the rule is, on a dropped third strike with 1st base occupied, there is no put of of the batter/runner. Batter out, there's nothing further to the play.
I've read it several times and not sure what I'm missing?

There were 2 outs. With 2 outs, the BR can advance even if 1B is occupied.

[Blue 5]

14 minutes ago, maven said:

There were 2 outs. With 2 outs, the BR can advance even if 1B is occupied.

Of course... thank you. 

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, Blue 5 said:

Of course... thank you. 

But do you know why?  If you know why the batter is automatically out with first base occupied, then you should know why the batter isn't automatically out if there are two out; at that point you will fully understand why the rule is there, and then you won't have to think about and remember all the scenarios and exceptions.

[Blue 5]

Because I didn't read the question fully.... but I bet you're going to tell me your theory?

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[beerguy55]

11 hours ago, Blue 5 said:

Because I didn't read the question fully.... but I bet you're going to tell me your theory?

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk
 

Nope, I have no theory.  No need to speculate, no need to test hypotheses.  I know exactly why the first base occupied rule exists, and why the two out exception exists, and so should any umpire.  (it would certainly be nice if all other coaches, players and fans understood why too, then umpires wouldn't get so many questions about it)

You said you read the question multiple times so I concluded you had read the question fully, and that you didn't know the rule to its full extent.  If you understand the rule then you understand the rule.

[Blue 5]

Sorry my friend... yes I read it and thought I read it thoroughly. But I'm admitting error. I'm a new ump so I'm taking in as much as I can and always welcome clarification and straight missed some of the details, reading it quickly on the phone.  That being said and as an educator in my real life,  I find it best to educate everyone, instead of simply hoping that they "learn" it themselves. So I would encourage not just you but everyone in a position to do so, educate when possible.

I had a tough call this weekend and had griping from the fans. Three coach came out and advised his fans to stop, as my call was proper and explained why. So it was nice to see the support and even better that he had my back and then educated to diffuse the situation. I implore all of us to do that. Just sayin'

[aaluck]

1 hour ago, Blue 5 said:

So I would encourage not just you but everyone in a position to do so, educate when possible.

It is to prevent a double/triple play.  Think IFF.

R1, strike three, catcher drops ball and throws to second, then ball thrown to first.

[Blue 5]

Correct.....in the earliest forms of the game it wasn't a rule and was taken advantage of, so the rule was implemented even before the modern version of the game played today!

[beerguy55]

4 hours ago, Blue 5 said:

That being said and as an educator in my real life,  I find it best to educate everyone, instead of simply hoping that they "learn" it themselves.

Educate, or spoon feed?   I try to give those who want to learn, in a learning environment, the opportunity to ask why, and then the opportunity to see if they can figure it out on their own.  Then explain either by helping them get there, or finally, if necessary, spelling it out.  Guess which one results in the highest likelihood they will retain the information.  

Without mansplaining it to you, I offered an opportunity for you to do just that, not being sure myself if you knew the rule or the reasoning behind it.  You decided to go in the direction you chose.

 

[ArchAngel72]

17 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Educate, or spoon feed?   I try to give those who want to learn, in a learning environment, the opportunity to ask why, and then the opportunity to see if they can figure it out on their own.  Then explain either by helping them get there, or finally, if necessary, spelling it out.  Guess which one results in the highest likelihood they will retain the information.  

Without mansplaining it to you, I offered an opportunity for you to do just that, not being sure myself if you knew the rule or the reasoning behind it.  You decided to go in the direction you chose.

 

I would like to be enlightened.  I know the facts that when 1b is occupied less than 2 outs a batter is out and not able to try to take 1st on an uncaught 3rd strike, and likewise with 2 outs and 1b occupied they have the opportunity to attempt to "steal" 1st base.

 

I however do not think I have heard WHY this is..

Although I do know Who is on 1st.

 

So please spell out why for me.

 

 

[Blue 5]

22 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Educate, or spoon feed?   I try to give those who want to learn, in a learning environment, the opportunity to ask why, and then the opportunity to see if they can figure it out on their own.  Then explain either by helping them get there, or finally, if necessary, spelling it out.  Guess which one results in the highest likelihood they will retain the information.  

Without mansplaining it to you, I offered an opportunity for you to do just that, not being sure myself if you knew the rule or the reasoning behind it.  You decided to go in the direction you chose.

 

I'll end the conversation here. Best of luck to you in your season. 

I admitted my error and that's good enough for me.  Not a know it all and of I was wrong in wrong. I'll eat it and move on. Good day

[beerguy55]

4 minutes ago, Blue 5 said:

I'll end the conversation here. Best of luck to you in your season. 

I admitted my error and that's good enough for me.  Not a know it all and of I was wrong in wrong. I'll eat it and move on. Good day

I didn't care about the error...I'm not sure why that's a focal point for you.  I made a deduction about the reason for the error, and after you explained otherwise I acknowledged that.

I'm going to have a beer. 

13 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

I would like to be enlightened.  I know the facts that when 1b is occupied less than 2 outs a batter is out and not able to try to take 1st on an uncaught 3rd strike, and likewise with 2 outs and 1b occupied they have the opportunity to attempt to "steal" 1st base.

 

I however do not think I have heard WHY this is..

I'll give you a hint...why does the Infield Fly Rule exist?

[BLWizzRanger]

4 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I didn't care about the error...I'm not sure why that's a focal point for you.  I made a deduction about the reason for the error, and after you explained otherwise I acknowledged that.

I'm going to have a beer. 

I'll give you a hint...why does the Infield Fly Rule exist?

To see chaos on the basepaths?

[Velho]

Is @aaluck shadow banned? 🤣

He covered it:

3 hours ago, aaluck said:

It is to prevent a double/triple play.  Think IFF.

R1, strike three, catcher drops ball and throws to second, then ball thrown to first.

 

[Velho]

1 minute ago, BLWizzRanger said:

6 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I'll give you a hint...why does the Infield Fly Rule exist?

To see chaos on the basepaths?

To let know-it-all-know-nothing fans self identify?

[ArchAngel72]

16 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I'll give you a hint...why does the Infield Fly Rule exist?

 

To protect the offense,  Ah yes it is coming back to me.