Is the runner out?

[Guest newblood9876]

I'm a new umpire. Was behind the plate tonight, here is the scoop.. feel free to let me have it if I banged this up because it mattered. 

 

Bottom 7. There are runners at 1st at 3rd. Ball hit to sharply to right field - caught - 2 out. Runner on 3rd goes home without tagging up. He crosses the plate and then realizes he needs to go back to 3rd. On a throwing error he makes it back safely but I notices that he didn't retouch home plate on the way back. I say nothing. The defending team appealed it before the next pitch, met with my partner and we declared the runner was out for the 3rd and last out of the game. 

Did I screw this call up? Should I have called it without the appeal since I saw it. Heard it heavy from losing coaches and fans that I should have made the call before the appeal but from my previous understanding I am to keep it to myself. 

(NFHS Please) TY. 

[SH0102]

First, welcome and thank you for becoming an umpire.  Second, don’t encourage “let me have it”. Even if you messed up (you didn’t), you’re new and truthfully, it’s how you best learn.  I would encourage you to do 2 things every time you have a goofy situation…go home and find it in the rule book (and/or case play book) and go ahead and ask on an umpire discussion site like this so others can learn too.

To your play, you did everything right. The touching of a base has a “last time by” standard. Ie, if I miss it on first pass but touch it going back, or vice versa, I’m ok.  In your case, runner did touch but didn’t on way back.  While it’s much more unusual at home (more common is runner on first stealing touches/passes second on a fly ball, realizes he needs to go back, and doesn’t touch second on way back)

And you ABSOLUTELY say nothing. You’re an umpire, not a coach. To tell the runner, “hey you need to touch home” would be a complete disgrace to umpiring and basically gifting the offense a get out of jail free card as you coach their runner. 
 

The only appealable thing you might call unrequested is batting with an illegal bat since it can be a safety issue, but even then, how often do you notice this? If it’s cracked or rattling maybe, otherwise when they appeal.

Things like left early, missed base, batting out of order, etc, you never announce a ruling without an appeal.

Good job.  And by the way, if you’re new, how did you get so lucky as to be starting out with a partner?  Def keep that gravy train going!

[SeeingEyeDog]

Welcome, Brother Blood...never forget this play. Not just because you got something nuanced correct but, because as a new umpire you did not allow yourself to be swayed by coach and fan reaction. You have to know instinctively that you're going to get static from a team when a call goes against them. And of course, the bigger the moment the more static you're going to get. Learn when and how we get with our partners (we don't always!) and work for The Game to get every call correct. I have lost count of the number of times I have been watching my favorite baseball team on TV and I will tell myself I'm not going to yell at the TV when calls are "missed" and...I do it anyway. I will see a wacker at the plate in real time and think the umpire missed it. Then they slow it down...and they got it correct. Fandom is a helluva drug...for all of us.

In closing, we're all trying to "get to varsity" or "get to D1" or "MiLB". We all have umpiring aspirations. But, whether you are working 8U on a small field by yourself, or D1 at Omaha...people expect amateur umpires to be MLB level. So, guess what? We should expect that of ourselves. That may never be our reality but, that is our expectation. Was my crew perfect today? No? What did we miss, how did it impact The Game and how can we prevent it from ever happening again? Be green. Be growing. Now, go and formally register with this forum and remember that you have your brothers on the field...and you have all your brothers here. You are never alone.

~Dawg

[maven]

3 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

But, whether you are working 8U on a small field by yourself, or D1 at Omaha...people expect amateur umpires to be MLB level. So, guess what? We should expect that of ourselves.

Agreed. We don't have to be professionals to have professionalism.

OP: good call. Same rule, all codes (details about when the runner can go back when the ball goes out of play vary, but they're all the same for this play—and that aspect didn't enter anyway).

[TooBusyToUmp]

I don't think I've ever considered last-time-by at home plate.  Thanks for this post.

So what's the difference between a failure to retouch and a wide detour path back to third base?  Are we saying that if the runner goes directly from home plate toward the third-base dugout but then cuts back in to reach third base, he's fine, but if a runner goes from home plate toward the first-base dugout then heads to third base, he's liable to be called out on appeal at home?

[The Man in Blue]

24 minutes ago, TooBusyToUmp said:

I don't think I've ever considered last-time-by at home plate.  Thanks for this post.

So what's the difference between a failure to retouch and a wide detour path back to third base?  Are we saying that if the runner goes directly from home plate toward the third-base dugout but then cuts back in to reach third base, he's fine, but if a runner goes from home plate toward the first-base dugout then heads to third base, he's liable to be called out on appeal at home?

 

If the runner didn't retouch, there is no difference what Family Circus route he/she takes ... out on a proper appeal either way.  Once you touch (or pass) a base, even home, you MUST retouch if you need to return to a prior base. 

Even if the runner is awarded bases on a dead ball, he must retouch anything he needs to retouch.  There was a play just a few weeks ago in Spring Training when a runner on second was awarded third on a popped up foul ball where the catcher caught it and then stepped into the dugout.  The runner never tagged up (or retagged) second base.  He just went on the third, then was called out on an appeal.

The only exception doesn't affect play -- on a foul ball.

[TooBusyToUmp]

20 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

If the runner didn't retouch, there is no difference what Family Circus route he/she takes ... out on a proper appeal either way.  Once you touch (or pass) a base, even home, you MUST retouch if you need to return to a prior base.

Consider scenario 2: if some other runner touches home plate once and, on the plate, pivots directly to go run back to third base, he's fine, of course, because he never passed home plate.

Back to my first scenario, if the runner who missed third base pivots on home plate directly toward the third base dugout, he didn't pass home at all. He just pivoted off of home plate and walked more or less toward third base before realizing what happened and running directly to third base.  You've said you have a viable appeal at home base here and I tend to agree, but...

Where do you draw the line between these two cases?

[The Man in Blue]

Did he touch it and leave it?  Then he needs to retouch it.

The pivot and immediate return from that spot, I am OK with.

[TooBusyToUmp]

Right, me too. But what's the difference between the "leave" and "running back to third"?  If the runner goes on a direct line to third base, that's obviously returning.  If he's walking away at a 80-degree angle to the third-base line, that's obviously leaving.  But what if it is a 10-degree angle? 45?   Or does our perception of their intent matter more?

[noumpere]

9 hours ago, TooBusyToUmp said:

Right, me too. But what's the difference between the "leave" and "running back to third"?  If the runner goes on a direct line to third base, that's obviously returning.  If he's walking away at a 80-degree angle to the third-base line, that's obviously leaving.  But what if it is a 10-degree angle? 45?   Or does our perception of their intent matter more?

Yes.  Sometimes you just need to umpire.

 

And, in practice, the only time someone steps on the plate and then turns to the dugout (i.e.s, doesn't "cross the plate") is on an award -- home run, or being forced home on a walk, for example.  On any kind of batted ball, they touch the plate and continue toward the first base dugout.

 

 

[The Man in Blue]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

Sometimes you just need to umpire.

This needs to be etched in the marble over the forum door. 

 

(We are that fancy, right?)

[umpstu]

14 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

If the runner didn't retouch, there is no difference what Family Circus route he/she takes ... out on a proper appeal either way.  Once you touch (or pass) a base, even home, you MUST retouch if you need to return to a prior base. 

Even if the runner is awarded bases on a dead ball, he must retouch anything he needs to retouch.  There was a play just a few weeks ago in Spring Training when a runner on second was awarded third on a popped up foul ball where the catcher caught it and then stepped into the dugout.  The runner never tagged up (or retagged) second base.  He just went on the third, then was called out on an appeal.

The only exception doesn't affect play -- on a foul ball.

A Family Circus comment in an umpire site?  That is awesome. Wonder if Family Circus still exists? Thanks.

[834k3r]

7 hours ago, umpstu said:

A Family Circus comment in an umpire site?  That is awesome. Wonder if Family Circus still exists? Thanks.

Yep. Apparently the original cartoonist's son has taken up the mantle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_Circus

[MadMax]

20 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

This needs to be etched in the marble over the forum door. 

 

(We are that fancy, right?)

Corian. (Looks just like marble from a distance, right?) 
 

We’re that cheap. Not as a forum, but as umpires. 

Good grief. 

[BLWizzRanger]

35 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Corian. (Looks just like marble from a distance, right?) 
 

We’re that cheap. Not as a forum, but as umpires. 

Good grief. 

Priorities.  Buying cheaper Corian means more equipment? right?