Conflicting calls by umpires in Little League game

[834k3r]

4 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

So it appears they are saying the call ON THE FIELD was "fair ball" DESPITE the actions of U3 which, even after the immediate call, indicate he called it foul.  He is just walking back into position and then decides to react to the play with a very confused look on his face.  IR would not have enough evidence to overturn the alleged (questionable?) on the field call of fair ball, so that is how it stayed that way ... but was it really that way to start with?

In my mind, it really boils down to what WP/WR said upon review. We'll never know, but it would be helpful for all of us trying to figure out just what the he77 was said for the call to go the way it did.

[aaluck]

On 8/12/2022 at 6:32 PM, McMike said:

so, I found this: https://www.littleleague.org/news/little-league-expands-video-replay-u-s-little-league-baseball-regional-tournament-games-2016/

Nice find.  But I'm not sure this covers this situation, or maybe it does. 

 

On 8/13/2022 at 5:11 PM, The Man in Blue said:

IR had to have ONLY looked at whether the ball was foul or not. 

This is my issue.  If there was NO call, or a fair signal I would agree with review and the result. I have no issue with that.

But here we have a clear call of foul.  At that point the play is OVER, done nothing more can happen...but it did.

[BigBlue4u]

Now that everyone has had a few days to think about all of this, consider the following: What would have happened if Oregon played the game under protest because the 3rd base umpire DID signal "Time." I think it would have a very good case. As it was, apparently, the Oregon review request was to determine whether or not the batted ball was fair or foul. In that case, it was going to be stuck with the result because the review determined that it was a fair ball. I know the LL RB pretty closely follows the ML RB. That being said, the protest would be a violation of 5.10 (I think that is the correct reference) "The ball becomes dead when an umpire calls 'Time.'" What does everyone think?

[Jimurray]

15 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

Now that everyone has had a few days to think about all of this, consider the following: What would have happened if Oregon played the game under protest because the 3rd base umpire DID signal "Time." I think it would have a very good case. As it was, apparently, the Oregon review request was to determine whether or not the batted ball was fair or foul. In that case, it was going to be stuck with the result because the review determined that it was a fair ball. I know the LL RB pretty closely follows the ML RB. That being said, the protest would be a violation of 5.10 (I think that is the correct reference) "The ball becomes dead when an umpire calls 'Time.'" What does everyone think?

Any protest would stop the game, or in this case the end of the game, until WP ruled. What was apparent about what the review was about. I don't see any info about who said what regarding any of the involved people.

[Catch18]

Its his call unless he is forced to vacate his position due to incoming balls.  Then it would go to PU
 
Least that's how we do it in 4. Or 6 man than it would go to the guy at LF.
 
But I agree it should not have been reviewed and once called foul it should have been played that way

“Unless forced to vacate”???? Come on.

PU almost never has a great look at line drives over the bag. OOP, not looking @ a good angle, 60-90’ away, mask on, batter possibly in front of him……BUs needs to be there, that’s his job. But giving up a call/positioning - not my area, but I wouldn’t like that explanation as a coach.

[ArchAngel72]

16 hours ago, Catch18 said:

“Unless forced to vacate”???? Come on.

PU almost never has a great look at line drives over the bag. OOP, not looking @ a good angle, 60-90’ away, mask on, batter possibly in front of him……BUs needs to be there, that’s his job. But giving up a call/positioning - not my area, but I wouldn’t like that explanation as a coach.

Your standing 12 feet behind the bag and some screaming BB comes your direction you stand in and do not move? 

 

You must be Joe West..

 

 

[Thunderheads]

9 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Your standing 12 feet behind the bag and some screaming BB comes your direction you stand in and do not move? 

it's your call ....in 4 man for fair/foul .... that's your responsibility, ...the ball can't be used as an excuse of being 'forced to vacate' ....

[ArchAngel72]

Just now, Thunderheads said:

it's your call ....in 4 man for fair/foul .... that's your responsibility, ...the ball can't be used as an excuse of being 'forced to vacate' ....

 

I do not for one second think any Crew or TD would put shame or anything upon a volunteer umpire at the LL level vacating due to a ball coming their way.

This is one of the differences between getting paid good money and volunteering doing this ..

my 2 cents

 

[Thunderheads]

19 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 

I do not for one second think any Crew or TD would put shame or anything upon a volunteer umpire at the LL level vacating due to a ball coming their way.

This is one of the differences between getting paid good money and volunteering doing this ..

my 2 cents

 

Fine then ....if you're going to vacate .............DON'T MAKE A CALL!  Right?

[Velho]

32 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Your standing 12 feet behind the bag and some screaming BB comes your direction you stand in and do not move? 

 

You must be Joe West..

Nicely played and laugh taken.

That said (and maybe, as my wife says, I'm being too serious) this was possibly a fair ball so you can't wear it.

[ArchAngel72]

32 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

Fine then ....if you're going to vacate .............DON'T MAKE A CALL!  Right?

Correct as I had stated earlier and we Prior to district level games as well as State level games were instructed that

 

If you vacate a position due to a ball coming your way DO not rule on fair or foul but then look to get in position should a play be coming your way.  /shrug

 

 

[Catch18]

Your standing 12 feet behind the bag and some screaming BB comes your direction you stand in and do not move? 
 
You must be Joe West..
 
 

I didn’t say “do not move.”

I said it’s your call, and to say “I had to bail, so I can’t make a call,” is poor umpiring. Umpires move all the time, we still have a job to do.

And that’s a pretty thin example of Joe. What’s he do after trying to move and still getting hit. I believe I saw a left arm elevate.

[JonnyCat]

So now that the tournament is over I can weigh in on my thoughts. I was not on this game, but I watched the whole thing from center field. Suffice it to say that both umpires feel awful about what happened. Both are very experienced umpires that know the 4 man system, it was just a mistake, compounded by LL's decision to keep the play live.

To re-cap, hard ground ball down the 3B line, U3 signals foul with a verbal, but does not point foul. PU signals fair, and play continued. Play went to review, and LL ruled the ball was fair, game over. We all saw what happened.

PU understood that it was not his call to make, U3 understood he should have come up big and killed the play. Mistakes happen, unfortunately they were exacerbated by the magnitude of the game.

A few observations:

1. Why LL chose to keep the ball fair is beyond my comprehension. I have my thoughts, but will reserve to keep them private for now. Since there was no clear video evidence that the ball was fair, the best course of action would have been to keep the ball foul. Return the runners, basically a do over. They could have easily defended this ruling by saying you can't "un-ring that bell." No one would have cared, and the game would have played out as normal.

2. There is a lot of talk about being "blown off the line." This is something we would pre-game at the request of the umpire supervisors. They instructed us that if U1 or U3 was blown off the line, make it obvious and work your way away from the foul line towards the wall. Leave no doubt that you are not going to make a call. In this case, U3 was not blown off the line. This is something that LL incorporates in their umpire training. I think it is useful in rare instances, but I do not subscribe to this methodology. I believe that U1 or U3 should do their utmost to hold the line and make the call. Unfortunately, if you don't have a whole lot of multi umpire training or games under your belt, you may lack the experience to hold the line, and too often fall back on the notion of getting blown off. This is not what happened in the game. It was U3's call all the way and coming up big would have nullified the PU's fair call.

3. There has been much talk and comments about LL volunteers and the need to use paid umpires for these tournaments. It hasn't really been mentioned on this site that I've seen, but I'd like to comment on this subject as I've seen a lot of it elsewhere. These are not umpires dads pulled out of the stands to work these games. They are seasoned and well trained umpires that worked hard to get a spot. It's not easy to be selected for this tournament. There is a vetting process and often a long waiting list. My district sends an umpire to WR about once every eight years. It's very competitive in So Cal for a chance to work this tournament. Most of the umpires at this tournament also do HS and travel-ball, too. What makes this tournament different is a number of things that can add a considerable amount of pressure to work these games. 3 of the 12 teams we saw were going to Williamsport. The stakes are high and the pressure is felt. ESPN adds a lot of game management pressure on how they want you to run the game. (I'll explain that in another thread.) Also, the living arrangements and extra-curricular obligations add to the pressure. Umpires, all 14 of them, stay in a dorm. You don't get the sleep or downtime you may be accustomed to. It's not like staying at home or in a hotel room. It was often hard for me to have the time I needed to prepare for my games, or just some downtime to decompress. I know others felt the same way. We were often up late, and up early to do some planned obligations that had nothing to do with games either. After a few days of this, it does wear on you. (More on this in another thread.) These arrangements did not help in keeping us sharp and prepared. But this notion that paid umpires automatically equate to better umpires is absurd.

Some of the best umpires I have worked with are LL volunteers, as well as umpires in associations. Some of the SH*#tiest umpires I have ever worked with are LL volunteers, as well as umpires in associations. Paid does not equal better. Period. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but I just needed to get that out. The abuse that is being said on social media is neither fair or warranted.

4. 6 man vs 4 man. Originally this tournament has always used 6 man crews, with a 7th umpire as a backup. That's why there were 14 of us working this tournament. Mind you, we have been preparing to work 6 man since the end of 2019. The tournament did not happen in 2020, and we were all given the option to defer for 2021, which most of us did. We ran 6 man for the first day of games on Saturday. On Sunday morning at 8am, an hour before the first game, we were told we would be running 4 man for the rest of the tournament. Williamsport made the decision, and there was no debate. They said that since softball used 4 man, then baseball was going to use 4 man as well. But for some reason, I think I saw Intermediate and Juniors still using 6 man. Don't ask me why, the decision was made by Williamsport and we were to comply. No one including the supervisors were happy. Fortunately, most of us were well versed in 4 man mechanics, but it was still very bad timing and an unexpected adjustment needed to be made with very little preparation. I was U1 in the first 4 man game that morning. We had about 5 minutes to pre-game. Not ideal. Not that it would have changed anything on this game, but it did add to the pressure and de-moralized the crews a bit. Now we were working less games after waiting almost 3 years for this tournament to happen. Why LL couldn't have just waited until next year to make this change is baffling to me, as well.

So there is more into this situation than just making a mistake. For some of the guys it was a long dream to work this tournament, and now they have to live with this. I feel awful for the 2 umpires on the crew. They are great guys and I would work any game at any level with any of my 13 brothers. I just hope they won't let this define them as umpires. I don't think it will, as they are great men with high character, but I know it stings a little bit. I know it would for me.

[Jimurray]

9 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

So now that the tournament is over I can weigh in on my thoughts. I was not on this game, but I watched the whole thing from center field. Suffice it to say that both umpires feel awful about what happened. Both are very experienced umpires that know the 4 man system, it was just a mistake, compounded by LL's decision to keep the play live.

To re-cap, hard ground ball down the 3B line, U3 signals foul with a verbal, but does not point foul. PU signals fair, and play continued. Play went to review, and LL ruled the ball was fair, game over. We all saw what happened.

PU understood that it was not his call to make, U3 understood he should have come up big and killed the play. Mistakes happen, unfortunately they were exacerbated by the magnitude of the game.

A few observations:

1. Why LL chose to keep the ball fair is beyond my comprehension. I have my thoughts, but will reserve to keep them private for now. Since there was no clear video evidence that the ball was fair, the best course of action would have been to keep the ball foul. Return the runners, basically a do over. They could have easily defended this ruling by saying you can't "un-ring that bell." No one would have cared, and the game would have played out as normal.

2. There is a lot of talk about being "blown off the line." This is something we would pre-game at the request of the umpire supervisors. They instructed us that if U1 or U3 was blown off the line, make it obvious and work your way away from the foul line towards the wall. Leave no doubt that you are not going to make a call. In this case, U3 was not blown off the line. This is something that LL incorporates in their umpire training. I think it is useful in rare instances, but I do not subscribe to this methodology. I believe that U1 or U3 should do their utmost to hold the line and make the call. Unfortunately, if you don't have a whole lot of multi umpire training or games under your belt, you may lack the experience to hold the line, and too often fall back on the notion of getting blown off. This is not what happened in the game. It was U3's call all the way and coming up big would have nullified the PU's fair call.

3. There has been much talk and comments about LL volunteers and the need to use paid umpires for these tournaments. It hasn't really been mentioned on this site that I've seen, but I'd like to comment on this subject as I've seen a lot of it elsewhere. These are not umpires dads pulled out of the stands to work these games. They are seasoned and well trained umpires that worked hard to get a spot. It's not easy to be selected for this tournament. There is a vetting process and often a long waiting list. My district sends an umpire to WR about once every eight years. It's very competitive in So Cal for a chance to work this tournament. Most of the umpires at this tournament also do HS and travel-ball, too. What makes this tournament different is a number of things that can add a considerable amount of pressure to work these games. 3 of the 12 teams we saw were going to Williamsport. The stakes are high and the pressure is felt. ESPN adds a lot of game management pressure on how they want you to run the game. (I'll explain that in another thread.) Also, the living arrangements and extra-curricular obligations add to the pressure. Umpires, all 14 of them, stay in a dorm. You don't get the sleep or downtime you may be accustomed to. It's not like staying at home or in a hotel room. It was often hard for me to have the time I needed to prepare for my games, or just some downtime to decompress. I know others felt the same way. We were often up late, and up early to do some planned obligations that had nothing to do with games either. After a few days of this, it does wear on you. (More on this in another thread.) These arrangements did not help in keeping us sharp and prepared. But this notion that paid umpires automatically equate to better umpires is absurd.

Some of the best umpires I have worked with are LL volunteers, as well as umpires in associations. Some of the SH*#tiest umpires I have ever worked with are LL volunteers, as well as umpires in associations. Paid does not equal better. Period. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but I just needed to get that out. The abuse that is being said on social media is neither fair or warranted.

4. 6 man vs 4 man. Originally this tournament has always used 6 man crews, with a 7th umpire as a backup. That's why there were 14 of us working this tournament. Mind you, we have been preparing to work 6 man since the end of 2019. The tournament did not happen in 2020, and we were all given the option to defer for 2021, which most of us did. We ran 6 man for the first day of games on Saturday. On Sunday morning at 8am, an hour before the first game, we were told we would be running 4 man for the rest of the tournament. Williamsport made the decision, and there was no debate. They said that since softball used 4 man, then baseball was going to use 4 man as well. But for some reason, I think I saw Intermediate and Juniors still using 6 man. Don't ask me why, the decision was made by Williamsport and we were to comply. No one including the supervisors were happy. Fortunately, most of us were well versed in 4 man mechanics, but it was still very bad timing and an unexpected adjustment needed to be made with very little preparation. I was U1 in the first 4 man game that morning. We had about 5 minutes to pre-game. Not ideal. Not that it would have changed anything on this game, but it did add to the pressure and de-moralized the crews a bit. Now we were working less games after waiting almost 3 years for this tournament to happen. Why LL couldn't have just waited until next year to make this change is baffling to me, as well.

So there is more into this situation than just making a mistake. For some of the guys it was a long dream to work this tournament, and now they have to live with this. I feel awful for the 2 umpires on the crew. They are great guys and I would work any game at any level with any of my 13 brothers. I just hope they won't let this define them as umpires. I don't think it will, as they are great men with high character, but I know it stings a little bit. I know it would for me.

Who do you mean by LL, WP or WR? If the manager had protested the review as a rule issue would "LL" have accepted the protest. What would your WR colleagues say applies, 9.04(c) or 5.10?

[ErichKeane]

Thanks for the summary @JonnyCat, BUT I was wondering if you have insight into the discussion between WP and the umpires for the review?  DID they consider at all whether it HAD been killed, or JUST fair-vs-foul?

The crux of it here is, what were they asked? Were they asked: "Can you overturn this 'fair' ball that we determined was 'fair' on the field to foul?"  Or a more general "What should we do here, we had conflicting calls?"

In the former, it seems to me that the error ends up being the 'rullng on the field' determination.  In the latter, an obvious error in review.  My FEAR is that at the time, the umpires hoped they were getting an answer to the 2nd, but WP only HEARD the request to review the first. 

[Guest LuckyKC7]

NW regional Little League championship game bottom of the 7th runner on first.  Batter hits the ball down the 3rd base line.  It hits the 3rd base line or just foul right by the plate and passes the bag and lands in foul territory.  3rd base field umpires standing on the line signals foul but home plate ump signals fair.  Play was able to resume.  Play was reviewed but with initial call of fair ball.  The Play stood and Runner scored.  If a foul ball was called should the play be dead?

[LRZ]

Lucky, are you talking about this:

https://umpire-empire.com/topic/77869-conflicting-calls-by-umpires-in-little-league-game/

 

 

[Jimurray]

14 hours ago, Guest LuckyKC7 said:

NW regional Little League championship game bottom of the 7th runner on first.  Batter hits the ball down the 3rd base line.  It hits the 3rd base line or just foul right by the plate and passes the bag and lands in foul territory.  3rd base field umpires standing on the line signals foul but home plate ump signals fair.  Play was able to resume.  Play was reviewed but with initial call of fair ball.  The Play stood and Runner scored.  If a foul ball was called should the play be dead?

Yes, but what if a foul and a fair ball was called. Should LL "9.04(c) - If different decisions should be made on one play by different umpires, the Umpire-in-Chief shall call all the umpires into consultation, with no manager or player present. After consultation, the Umpire-in-Chief shall determine which decision shall prevail, based on which umpire was in the best position and which decision was most likely correct. Play shall proceed as if only the final decision had been made." , be used?

Would LL say that if the Oregon  Manager actually asked to protest the rule and not the call would that game finish better? At this point we don't even know if LL Western Region or LL Williamsport was on the phone. And they don't care. They got the show going on in WP and it's all glossed over. 

[JonnyCat]

7 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Who do you mean by LL, WP or WR? If the manager had protested the review as a rule issue would "LL" have accepted the protest. What would your WR colleagues say applies, 9.04(c) or 5.10?

Little League and Williamsport are one in the same. WR is Western Region. Williamsport are the ones doing replay. I don't know if a protest would even be heard. I don't have my rulebooks in front of me, so I'd have to read up on 9.04(c) or 5.10. I'll look tomorrow and reply back.

I have my thoughts on why WP ruled the way they did, but I won't say publicly.

[JonnyCat]

7 hours ago, ErichKeane said:

Thanks for the summary @JonnyCat, BUT I was wondering if you have insight into the discussion between WP and the umpires for the review?  DID they consider at all whether it HAD been killed, or JUST fair-vs-foul?

The crux of it here is, what were they asked? Were they asked: "Can you overturn this 'fair' ball that we determined was 'fair' on the field to foul?"  Or a more general "What should we do here, we had conflicting calls?"

In the former, it seems to me that the error ends up being the 'rullng on the field' determination.  In the latter, an obvious error in review.  My FEAR is that at the time, the umpires hoped they were getting an answer to the 2nd, but WP only HEARD the request to review the first. 

There is no discussion with WP during a video review. You tell them what the coach wants to review, and they give you an answer. There is no interaction. I believe the review was whether the ball was fair or foul. WP decided to rule that it was a fair ball.

We were not instructed to have crew review. Reviews had to come from the manager. I guess the crew could have asked what to do, but that was not in anyone's radar. We were also not told what was reviewable or not. They told us to take every review request from a manager and WP would decide on what to do. 

IMO, keeping the ball foul would have been the proper call, either on the field or from WP.

[Jimurray]

10 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

Little League and Williamsport are one in the same. WR is Western Region. Williamsport are the ones doing replay. I don't know if a protest would even be heard. I don't have my rulebooks in front of me, so I'd have to read up on 9.04(c) or 5.10. I'll look tomorrow and reply back.

I have my thoughts on why WP ruled the way they did, but I won't say publicly.

So the Washington Oregon coach was remiss in not protesting a rule issue after a review that he/us did not actually know what was being ruled upon? 

[JonnyCat]

7 hours ago, Jimurray said:

So the Washington coach was remiss in not protesting a rule issue after a review that he/us did not actually know what was being ruled upon? 

I think you mean the Oregon coach?

Yes, he probably didn't know what happened or what to do. I'm sure the Oregon coach asked for a review over fair/foul, hoping that it would be ruled a foul ball. When the decision was handed down and the run scored/game over, I'm sure he didn't know what to do after that. But he would not have known, nor did the umpires either, what the rational/rule support was used to determine why WP ruled the way they did.

A protest might not have even been heard, and the coach may have realized that. More than likely, the same person that reviewed the play would have heard the protest. So I don't think anything would have changed. Whatever decision WP renders is final. 

[ArchAngel72]

This explains it pretty well for me.  If this went to replay how is it jomboy has a better look at it than they do?

The ball was clearly foul.

I am also reversing my statements on the 3BU getting blown off looking at the slomo here he did have time to see the ball and made a couple step adjustment to see it fine.. 

 

But still replay should have seen the balls 1st bounce and then that second bounce..

IMHO replay buggered this one up..

 

[ErichKeane]

I watched that and disagreed with him.  The ball absolutely could have had a sliver of it over the base given both of those bounces, so there isn't enough from that video to reverse the call. 

The ONLY valuable form of review was to show that the 3BU gave a dead-ball signal, and the defense counted on it.  The one video I would LOVE to see (that no one has provided) is how the LF responded to the call.  Was he 'playing through' as if it was fair, or did he pull up and just jog over to the ball and lazily throw it in, because he thought it was foul.

[Thunderheads]

20 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 

The ball was clearly foul.

 

 

you don't know that .... you can't tell ....    THE ONLY way to tell is if you have a view down the line, period.