How crazy of a direction can you take with a lead before you break a rule or make it a travesty?

[wolfe_man]

Rules: NFHS Baseball

Level: 9th grade

Situation: Bases loaded, R1 is trying to get the F1 to pick him off so R3 can steal home.  R1 takes a lead and is between F3 and F4, but back along the edge of the grass where the IF and OF meet.  At one point, he is behind F4 and within 12 steps of second base itself.   One of the DAC's is losing his mind, yelling "he is out of the baseline, blue!" - but I have nothing as I am unaware of any rule that states a leadoff must be in a certain direction or stay in a straight line from the base. 

The only thing I could come up with was R1 possibly making a travesty of the game by going so far out of the normal chosen path from 1B to 2B? But then, I didn't want to go picking boogers either, so I let it stand and told the DC that the runner will have to choose his own path. Once a play is made on R1, then he must stay within that baseline no matter how far out of the norm he chose. But, I can't simply call him out of the baseline when there is no play being made on him and there is no rule of which I am aware that R1 is breaking at this time.

Is there something I should have called him out for or was R1 completely within his rights, no matter how odd they may seem from the normal standpoint.  Remember, this is 9th grade baseball, so just because it looks odd does not always equal a rule being broken; however, if I missed a rule I should have applied then I want to learn from that in case I ever see this again.  My partner and I discussed after the game and he could not think of any rule to apply here either, but we both thought it was very odd. 

I would really appreciate if someone knows if there is a rule that should have been enforced here. 

[ErichKeane]

I believe you saw the 'skunk in the outfield' play.  My understanding is guidance is that it is completely legal (see this article: https://austinumpires.org/skunkplay.html), but umpires should be careful to ensure that R1 travels directly to one of the bases "when a play is being made on him".  I've seen references to this play in the past that claimed that NFHS guidance is that this is NOT a "travesty of the game", and to let it play out.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 Baseball Rules Differences by Carl Childress (section 454, p. 301):

Runner Establishes Base Path

FED:  When a play is being made on a runner, he establishes his base path as a direct line between his position and the base he is trying for. (8-4-2a-2)

Official Interpretation: Hopkins:  The “skunk in the outfield” is legal. A runner may lead off any way he likes toward the next base and is not guilty of an infraction unless he uses more than three feet on either side of his base path to avoid a tag. (Website 2000 #20; affirmed, website 2005 #16)

NCAA and OBR:  Same as FED.

OBR Official Interpretation: Wendelstedt:  A runner may lead off in any manner he wishes, including as far into the outfield as he’d like. The only restriction involves first:  If BR runs through first, he is required to return to it before taking his lead. He may not remain out in the outfield and “lead off” from that position or attempt to draw a throw from the defense to allow other runners to advance.

2000 SITUATION 20: With R3 on third base, R1 takes a lead off of first base and positions himself at the grass behind first base down the right field line. F1 throws to F3 in an attempt to pick off R1. R1 runs down the right field foul line toward the outfield fence. RULING: While R1’s position is legal, he is declared out when he ran toward the outfield fence when a play was attempted. In running down the foul line, he was out of the baseline he had between his position at the time of the pick off and second base. (8-4-2a)

2005 SITUATION 16: With R3 on third base, R1 takes a position about three feet in the grass behind first base. The pitcher, in a pick-off attempt, throws to first base and R1 runs directly from his position to second base. The defensive coach argues that this is an unfair tactic and that R2 should be declared out. RULING: While a runner may not position himself behind a base to get a running start, there are no other restrictions as to where a runner must be when taking his lead from a base. From wherever he positions himself, his baseline is established from that point directly to the base toward which he is attempting. As long as he does not run more than three feet away from that direct line to avoid being tagged when a play is being made on him, his action is legal. (8-2, 8-4-2a Note, 8-4-2o)

[Richvee]

He can lead  off wherever he wants. There’s no out of the basepath until the defense makes a play on the runner. When the defense makes a play on him, now the runner must stay within a 3 feet of his path. 

[wolfe_man]

Thanks all. This is what I ruled, but it feels better with confirmation from those I trust.

[aaluck]

I had this situation come up a few years ago and it turned into a complete joke.  

R1, R3 no outs. R1 'leads off' basically to the right fielder.  Batter hits it to third.  He looks back R3 and guns it to first.  By this time R1 (the guy still in right field) had moved a bit toward second on the hit, but he is still in the outfield.  First baseman returns the ball to the pitcher, so still R1 and R3, one out.  Next pitch is a line drive to the second baseman.  Catches the ball and tosses it to first for the third out.  So basically they gave the defense an out for free--had they not the next batter may have gotten a hit.

If a team is coached correctly this will only adversely effect the offensive team.    

[Mussgrass]

They should have thrown to 2nd to get the force out on R1 on the first play.

[beerguy55]

Sure, it's legal, but I wish coaches who teach/call/encourage this SH*# would be beaten with a rubber hose.   It's not baseball.  It's below bush league.

 

At that same time, F1 should just throw to F4 who is in front of the runner...if that runner makes any move towards the outfield, he's out...then spin and throw home.

 

Frankly, if they're at a level where F4 can't throw out R3 at home, then R3 is probably scoring anyway, take the free out.   Outs are the most precious commodity in the game...if the other team wants to give them away, let them.

[mac266]

Go to YouTube and look up the "skunk in the outfield" trick play. 

Comments to your question:

1- The coach should learn the difference between the baseline and the base path.  He meant to say the runner was out of the base path. 

2- The runner establishes the base path when a play is made on him.  It is **NOT** a straight line between the bases.  That is why I brought up the "skunk in the outfield" play.

[MadMax]

53 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Sure, it's legal, but I wish coaches who teach/call/encourage this SH*# would be beaten with a rubber hose.   It's not baseball.  It's below bush league.

How is this "bush league"? If you don't have a pitcher who can reliably throw a strike, a catcher who can reliably catch, and/or an infield who can't retain its composure and react to a play in an effective (read: error-free) manner, then how am I – as an opponent, umpire, or baseball enthusiast – expected to be sympathetic to you?? 

I'm at a breaking point – wit's freakin' end, and only my mask is sometimes obscuring the contempt on my face – in amateur baseball wherein a defensive team gets into a R1-R3 situation, and just implodes. The coaching staff implores the catcher to (oh! call Time first!) step out in front of the plate, go thru all these complex signals and semaphores that resemble trying to land an aircraft on a WWII escort carrier, in a crosswind, or WORSE! call out this numerical code that all fielders have to consult their wrist card about... and then on the first f'ing pitch they completely f*#k it up by: 

1. F1 throwing the pitch to the backstop
2. F2 throwing his throw over or wide of 2B
3. F4 / F6 completely forgetting to cover 2B
4. F1 snaring F2's return throw, and then spinning to throw it wide of 3B
5. F2 elaborately faking his throw, and double-clutching to instead throw to 3B... five feet over F5's head.
6. F2 elaborately faking his throw, ignoring R1 completely, and go... ridiculously... running after R3 looking like a Tin Can Knight (side: I'm starting to deduce that the success of an amateur baseball team is directly linked to the condition and fit of the F2's gear).

So if a little-known, off-the-backpage play situation like the "skunk in the grass" is enough to show how utterly deficient a team – and ultimately, how unprepared or coached – is at handling these scenarios, then I say have at it. 

[beerguy55]

48 minutes ago, MadMax said:

How is this "bush league"? If you don't have a pitcher who can reliably throw a strike, a catcher who can reliably catch, and/or an infield who can't retain its composure and react to a play in an effective (read: error-free) manner, then how am I – as an opponent, umpire, or baseball enthusiast – expected to be sympathetic to you?? 

I don't want you, whether you're the coach, umpire, or fan in the stands, to be sympathetic to me.  I want that coach to stop wasting my time.  Get on with the damned ball game and stop trying to come up with every stupid tactic imaginable to use R1 to score R3.   I can counter it, and I have countered it.   At all age and skill levels.  To such a coach my response is: Stop wasting my time "coach" and teach your hitters to hit...then you won't have to worry about ridiculous tactics to score a cheap run.

Like I said before, I'll give you the damned run if you want it so bad...I'll gladly take the free out you just gave me.  My players can hit, so if you can counter the 12 runs I'm gonna shove down your throat by giving me a free out every time you have R1/R3, go for it.

And it's bush league because it's a tactic that only works against SH*#ty teams...and 99.99999% of the time they  don't need the tactic, because their opponent is that SH*#ty.  It's not smart coaching...it's beating up/bullying a weaker team. 

Worse, any coach who calls this crap is not doing their players any favors...when running this kind of play they are not learning ANY skills that they can retain and develop that will help them in the future.  Teach your kids to hit.   Teach them how to effectively run bases.  Teach them the skills they'll need as they advance.   Teaching this crap is just a waste of time, and only serves a coach who wants to win at all costs.

[MadMax]

2 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Like I said before, I'll give you the damned run if you want it so bad...I'll gladly take the free out you just gave me.  My players can hit, so if you can counter the 12 runs I'm gonna shove down your throat by giving me a free out every time you have R1/R3, go for it.

Now that's the attitude I can get behind! Bravo! 

12 runs is exactly the kind of production we need to get to a Run Rule. Yay! Umpires everywhere will applaud you (and your team)! 

[concertman1971]

3 hours ago, MadMax said:

(side: I'm starting to deduce that the success of an amateur baseball team is directly linked to the condition and fit of the F2's gear)

This is the way!!! hahahhah

[aaluck]

21 hours ago, MadMax said:

• F1 throwing the pitch to the backstop
• F2 throwing his throw over or wide of 2B
• F4 / F6 completely forgetting to cover 2B
• F1 snaring F2's return throw, and then spinning to throw it wide of 3B
• F2 elaborately faking his throw, and double-clutching to instead throw to 3B... five feet over F5's head.
• F2 elaborately faking his throw, ignoring R1 completely, and go... ridiculously... running after R3 looking like a Tin Can Knight (side: I'm starting to deduce that the success of an amateur baseball team is directly linked to the condition and fit of the F2's gear).

Sounds like AZ has some real BAD baseball going on.  What level is this ... I'm assuming 9U?

If I'm coaching and the above-stated is going on, why bother with the 'skunk in the outfield', just let the pitcher throw it to the backstop. 

[MadMax]

4 minutes ago, aaluck said:

What level is this ... I'm assuming 9U?

Nope. I don't do anything younger than 13U, if I have any say in it... which I do. Assigners here are wasting my time/skill if they put me on anything less than 60-90 baseball. 

This shoddiness is happening at the 14U club / low-enrollment HS level.