Glove flapping while in set position

[SleptTilNoonLOL]

Pitcher comes to a set position and stops every part of his body except a nervous tick of opening and closing his glove around the ball. He delivers the pitch without ever stopping the flapping. Is this considered a no stop balk?

[Guest Bigblue4uy]

I would not consider the flapping a balk.  However, I would consider it possibly distracting the batter.   Thus, I would tell the pitcher and coach to please refrain.   Hopefully, that will resolve the issue.  If he should disregard your order, he would be subjection to ejection.

[Jimurray]

56 minutes ago, Guest Bigblue4uy said:

I would not consider the flapping a balk.  However, I would consider it possibly distracting the batter.   Thus, I would tell the pitcher and coach to please refrain.   Hopefully, that will resolve the issue.  If he should disregard your order, he would be subjection to ejection.

I've never seen it cause a problem and thus have never had to deal with it other than me noticing it. But I really don't like the pitcher breathing during his complete and discernable stop.

[kylehutson]

I have balked this at the college JuCo level. If I can't tell the end of your coming set and your pause, it's a balk. Many pitchers will do something like this flapping to indicate that they aren't yet set.

I'll just say I've never had to balk the same pitcher twice for the same thing.

[MadMax]

2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

But I really don't like the pitcher breathing during his complete and discernable stop.

Here, Jim, I found the ol’ Sarcasm tag , it was hiding under the ol’ eye roll emoji. 

[Mudisfun]

Depending on how egregious this is, and if I found it necessary to address, I foresee a between inning conversation with the HC. Telling him I have it as distracting and a no-stop and that from there on it is a balk, he has time to address the issue.

Now if he is flapping in the breeze like a damn Condor, grab the balk immediately.

[johnnyg08]

From a base stealers perspective...which I don't believe we've addressed. I don't feel as though the pitcher has met the requirements of a legal set (if required by situation & by rule). 

Often times, if a pitcher & catcher can steal .1 or .2 seconds they've essentially eliminated the possibility of base stealing.

At the JV level & above, I recommend no-stop balking this as their "warning." The defense will take a warning and an out all day long....if there's a way to sneak in a "warning" sure...use your experience & skill to work it in if you can. 

But...don't feel bad about enforcing the rule either.

 

 

[SleptTilNoonLOL]

It was extremely noticeable but far from distracting. He wasnt doing it during the delivery, but never paused from doing it before pitching either. Sounds like my attitude towards it was basically the same as most here. I would elect to ignore it because it was only his fingers moving his glove and zero advantage was gained, his arms were not moving in any way. I was mainly asking if it was technically a balk in case I had the same thing in the future and people were griping about it. Sounds like if that happens I'll have to try to get the kid to stop and if he doesnt then balk him

 

Thank you guys

[Replacematt]

3 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

From a base stealers perspective...which I don't believe we've addressed. I don't feel as though the pitcher has met the requirements of a legal set (if required by situation & by rule). 

Often times, if a pitcher & catcher can steal .1 or .2 seconds they've essentially eliminated the possibility of base stealing.

At the JV level & above, I recommend no-stop balking this as their "warning." The defense will take a warning and an out all day long....if there's a way to sneak in a "warning" sure...use your experience & skill to work it in if you can. 

But...don't feel bad about enforcing the rule either.

 

 

I firmly believe that people don't call enough balks. And enough people firmly believe I call too many. 

[Senor Azul]

When the pitcher has come to his “set position,” he must stop completely by rule. Once the pitcher comes set, he can only move his head. All other body movements and flinches count as starting and stopping, i.e., are balks including the movement of the pitcher’s glove-hand as in your scenario.

[johnnyg08]

3 hours ago, SleptTilNoonLOL said:

It was extremely noticeable but far from distracting. He wasnt doing it during the delivery, but never paused from doing it before pitching either. Sounds like my attitude towards it was basically the same as most here. I would elect to ignore it because it was only his fingers moving his glove and zero advantage was gained, his arms were not moving in any way. I was mainly asking if it was technically a balk in case I had the same thing in the future and people were griping about it. Sounds like if that happens I'll have to try to get the kid to stop and if he doesnt then balk him

 

Thank you guys

It won't stop until you balk it...don't waste your time or breath on "warnings" & "don't do thats" 

They don't work. 

But...do what you gotta do.

[LRZ]

If movement means a pitcher has not yet come set--i.e., is "in the stretch"--then it follows that movement is not a "complete stop." OBR 5.07(a)(2); NFHS 6-1-3 ("complete and discernible stop"). Continuing to flap the glove without a complete stop before delivering the pitch is a balk. Pitchers can't have it both ways.

 

[Catch18]

It won't stop until you balk it...don't waste your time or breath on "warnings" & "don't do thats" 
They don't work. 
But...do what you gotta do.

Thank someone for finally bringing it up. I was wondering if we’d get there.

Said to Team A: “hey coach, your pitcher is pretty close to balking, got that glove moving, kinda could be something, have him knock it off.”

Smart Team B: “hey blue! Why’d you tell that team to knock something off? We’re they violating a rule? Why don’t you call it!?!?!?”

We think we’re being sly every time we pull the ‘ole “dust-off-the-plate-and-whisper-to-the-catcher blah blah blah……” Yeah, we’ve all done it.

No wonder we often hear, maybe rightly so, “umps didn’t call that last game!!!”

I’m prob guilty of it too….but I told myself this year to get better in this realm…..either call the rule or don’t.


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[johnnyg08]

If I were a defensive coach, I'd take the out and a warning all day. 

It's become so commonplace, we've gotten to the point where they will ask about their warning! Yet, in many cases, there's nothing in the pitching regulations about a warning preceding a balk. 

Call it or don't...but the meaningless warnings because we don't wanna get yelled at gotta stop. 

[LRZ]

17 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

don't waste your time or breath on "warnings" & "don't do thats" They don't work. 

For me--and I emphasize that I'm talking about my approach, not a general prescription for all umpires--I would not be too dogmatic. Warnings are not necessarily meaningless; they have their place in our toolbox. This is largely situational, particularly the level you're working. But I agree that when push comes to shove, call the balk.

One official's opinion. YMMV.

In any event, one rec league I worked had a "one warning per pitcher" rule.

 

[Guest BigBlue4u]

On 3/21/2022 at 5:12 PM, SleptTilNoonLOL said:

He delivers the pitch without ever stopping the flapping. Is this considered a no stop balk?

SleptTillNoonOP....A word of advice:  Don't change your story.  In the OP you used the word "flapping.'  Then you said it was only his fingers moving the glove. There is a big difference between "flapping" his glove and his fingers moving in the glove.   Get the story straight!!

[Replacematt]

25 minutes ago, Guest BigBlue4u said:

SleptTillNoonOP....A word of advice:  Don't change your story.  In the OP you used the word "flapping.'  Then you said it was only his fingers moving the glove. There is a big difference between "flapping" his glove and his fingers moving in the glove.   Get the story straight!!

I think that's a distinction without a difference, unless you have x-ray vision.

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

I think that's a distinction without a difference, unless you have x-ray vision.

It does get to the point, though, that the rule doesn't (generally) describe specific actions that are illegal, only the results / conditions they cause.  Umpires need to be able to explain the balk in terms of the rule language without using words like "double tap" or "glove flapping" or "deceived the batter" etc.

[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

It does get to the point, though, that the rule doesn't (generally) describe specific actions that are illegal, only the results / conditions they cause.  Umpires need to be able to explain the balk in terms of the rule language without using words like "double tap" or "glove flapping" or "deceived the batter" etc.

I didn't take that as the point they were making. Neither "flapping" nor "moving in the glove" are in the rule.

[Catch18]

I didn't take that as the point they were making. Neither "flapping" nor "moving in the glove" are in the rule.

On point Matt.

I’d like to add if we umpires are having to add things like “but” or “well” to your explanations to coaches, you’re only making it harder on yourself.

Case: FPSR. We’re in the gray area of going in standing up. I called it. Coach asked what he did. I replied “force play slide rule violation.” Coach said, “ok, I didn’t see it, just want to get with my player.”

If I spent time parsing through the “no slide, even though he did this, should have done that”…..SH*# house. Keep it simple and brief fellas.


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[SleptTilNoonLOL]

23 hours ago, Guest BigBlue4u said:

SleptTillNoonOP....A word of advice:  Don't change your story.  In the OP you used the word "flapping.'  Then you said it was only his fingers moving the glove. There is a big difference between "flapping" his glove and his fingers moving in the glove.   Get the story straight!!

???? Both are correct. His fingers were opening and closing the glove, AKA "flapping". The point is that he was not moving his arms, elbows, etc at all. It was only the glove that was moving and the rest of him had come to a complete pause.  Don't come at me pal!!!! 

Everyone else thank you for the good discussion on this. 😉

[aaluck]

On 3/21/2022 at 10:46 PM, kylehutson said:

I have balked this at the college JuCo level.

I agree that this situation depends on the level of play. At that level I would agree on a balk, maybe even good HS ball.

I would probably speak with the coach when I had time to work on stopping that.