NFHS 1-1-4: Defensive Player out-of-play: Balk?

[agdz59]

My copy of the 2022 NFHS rule book arrived yesterday so I'm giving it a read.   I'll probably have more than one question but we'll start with this one.

NFHS 1-1-4: At TOP, all defensive players must have at least one foot in fair territory (except the catcher). Penalty: Illegal pitch.

The definition of Illegal Pitch at 2-18 says that when one occurs with men on base, it is a balk.

Does this mean if the first baseman is completely in foul territory at the time of pitch (for instance) it is an NFHS dead-ball balk and NOT a ball?  Hadn't thought about that as a possibility before going over the rules again (which is why we should, eh?)

[BLWizzRanger]

I will try since I need to get back into this...  TOP is when the pitch 'releases' the ball vice when they 'start' the pitching movement. 

If there is a runner on base, then a balk can be called.  Since you are mentioning F3, I assume that there is a R1 and F3 is holding them on.  One foot on the line classifies that a fielder is in play. Usually, F3 will move into position when F1 starts their pitch and should be in the field of play at the TOP.

If you are in 2-man, no one is looking at F3 anyway at the TOP.

But to answer your question, I would say, yes, it would be a illegal pitch/balk if the F3 was caught out of the field of play.

[Jimurray]

38 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

I will try since I need to get back into this...  TOP is when the pitch 'releases' the ball vice when they 'start' the pitching movement. 

If there is a runner on base, then a balk can be called.  Since you are mentioning F3, I assume that there is a R1 and F3 is holding them on.  One foot on the line classifies that a fielder is in play. Usually, F3 will move into position when F1 starts their pitch and should be in the field of play at the TOP.

If you are in 2-man, no one is looking at F3 anyway at the TOP.

But to answer your question, I would say, yes, it would be a illegal pitch/balk if the F3 was caught out of the field of play.

You have TOP wrong. The “vice” is correct for TOP. 

[Senor Azul]

An illegal pitch is also listed as a balk in the actual balk rule 6-2-4…

2019 NFHS rule 6-2 ART. 4 . . . Balk. If there is a runner or runners, any of the following acts by a pitcher while he is touching the pitcher’s plate is a balk:

c. making an illegal pitch from any position (6-1, 6-2-1a-d);

[BLWizzRanger]

22 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

You have TOP wrong. The “vice” is correct for TOP. 

Took my shot! Shucks.

[Jimurray]

1 minute ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Took my shot! Shucks.

Everything else in your post is correct especially that nobody should be looking at F3 at TOP to call a balk. 

[agdz59]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Everything else in your post is correct especially that nobody should be looking at F3 at TOP to call a balk. 

Certainly.  But my NFHS games include u10 travel ball and 7th graders, some with their first exposure to baseball.  I would not be surprised if I had to call time after TOP because some fielder decided they just absolutely positively had to pee and they were fumbling with the gate latch trying not to pee their pants before getting there.

[MadMax]

53 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

Three important factors: 

1. In 2-man, if there’s a R1, that puts the BU inside. And, we (umpires) are supposed to be focused on the pitcher and the ball… so how are we to be observing and calling on whether or not a F3 is completely in foul territory or not??

2. Even in 3-man (or 4-man), with R1, why would a U1 be pulling the “bait & wait & gotcha!” move on an unaware F3? Just remind them that they need to be legal, ie. one foot in fair territory. We can do that without a pitch thrown. 

3. A pickoff is not and has never been considered a pitch. Thus, if a F3 is standing in foul territory, and receives a pickoff throw, is this to be called a Balk??!! 
 

… uh, No.

Bonus! 
What affect does F3’s precise position have on an individual pitch? To make a ball Live, that I can see; we have to implement the Rule that we need 9 players on defense, the pitcher has the ball, engaged to the rubber, etc. … But once the ball is Live, and we’re watching a series of pitches, what affect does that have on that pitch… or that one? … or that one? 

54 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

I would not be surprised if I had to call time after TOP because some fielder decided they just absolutely positively had to pee and they were fumbling with the gate latch trying not to pee their pants before getting there.

Waitaminute… think thru that again. Why would you have an active defensive player over at the gate at TOP? And, once the pitch is released, where does it matter where the players go? You’ve got fielders running into foul territory to catch fly balls, retrieve batted (fair) bounding balls, and backing up errant throws… are you calling Time on those actions???

[agdz59]

50 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Three important factors: 

1. In 2-man, if there’s a R1, that puts the BU inside. And, we (umpires) are supposed to be focused on the pitcher and the ball… so how are we to be observing and calling on whether or not a F3 is completely in foul territory or not??

2. Even in 3-man (or 4-man), with R1, why would a U1 be pulling the “bait & wait & gotcha!” move on an unaware F3? Just remind them that they need to be legal, ie. one foot in fair territory. We can do that without a pitch thrown. 

3. A pickoff is not and has never been considered a pitch. Thus, if a F3 is standing in foul territory, and receives a pickoff throw, is this to be called a Balk??!! 
 

… uh, No.

Bonus! 
What affect does F3’s precise position have on an individual pitch? To make a ball Live, that I can see; we have to implement the Rule that we need 9 players on defense, the pitcher has the ball, engaged to the rubber, etc. … But once the ball is Live, and we’re watching a series of pitches, what affect does that have on that pitch… or that one? … or that one? 

Waitaminute… think thru that again. Why would you have an active defensive player over at the gate at TOP? And, once the pitch is released, where does it matter where the players go? You’ve got fielders running into foul territory to catch fly balls, retrieve batted (fair) bounding balls, and backing up errant throws… are you calling Time on those actions???

Jesus christ, lighten up. I saw something in the rule book I hadn't thought through the implications of. I mention it here. You guys think I'm looking for it instead of the game in front of me. Where in the hell did you get that from what I posted?

Then I try to make what is obviously a joke and you think I'm not thinking it through? WTF?

I try with this place but y'all have bugs way upside your buttholes.  Give it a rest.

[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, agdz59 said:

Jesus christ, lighten up. I saw something in the rule book I hadn't thought through the implications of. I mention it here. You guys think I'm looking for it instead of the game in front of me. Where in the hell did you get that from what I posted?

Then I try to make what is obviously a joke and you think I'm not thinking it through? WTF?

I try with this place but y'all have bugs way upside your buttholes.  Give it a rest.

It wasn't obviously a joke. Keeping that in mind, what Max was saying was helpful in thinking through how to officiate that.

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, agdz59 said:

Jesus christ, lighten up. I saw something in the rule book I hadn't thought through the implications of. I mention it here. You guys think I'm looking for it instead of the game in front of me. Where in the hell did you get that from what I posted?

Then I try to make what is obviously a joke and you think I'm not thinking it through? WTF?

I try with this place but y'all have bugs way upside your buttholes.  Give it a rest.

Relax, your dry sense of humor was not recognized. As mine is not also which my wife reminded me many times. 

[dumbdumb]

8 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Relax, your dry sense of humor was not recognized. As mine is not also which my wife reminded me many times. 

my wife???? what ever happened to SWMBO.

P.S. and you (there's that you word) are still a, honey do, whether you like it or not. toby keith said so.  me thinks we all are.

[johnnyg08]

I would strongly recommend to avoid going looking for this. 

Let the game come to you. There's enough out there that will find us. 

 

[Thunderheads]

2 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

I would strongly recommend to avoid going looking for this. 

Let the game come to you. There's enough out there that will find us. 

 

THIS!!!!!!!!!  RIGHT HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

15 hours ago, Matt said:

It wasn't obviously a joke. Keeping that in mind, what Max was saying was helpful in thinking through how to officiate that.

This is true, ... your post did NOT come across as a joke... while funny, it missed many people.

16 hours ago, agdz59 said:

Jesus christ, lighten up. I saw something in the rule book I hadn't thought through the implications of. I mention it here. You guys think I'm looking for it instead of the game in front of me. Where in the hell did you get that from what I posted?

Then I try to make what is obviously a joke and you think I'm not thinking it through? WTF?

I try with this place but y'all have bugs way upside your buttholes.  Give it a rest.

No sir, ... YOU lighten up.  You can not come to ANY forum without A) fairly tough skin, B) carefully reading and understanding someone's post that YOU THINK may be offensive.  Step back and re-read it from as many points of view as you can think of .........  THEN respond .....        @MadMax being a jerk is hard to come by on this site.   He's got a TON to offer, as do quite a few others here ....

[maven]

 

[urout17]

"Hey 1B, get a foot on the line"  Done.