Riddle me this, When is game over, appeal force play at third (or second)

[Umpire942]

This was FED rules.  I had this play happen already once in the regular high school season.  Bases were loaded,  2 outs, base hit, BR goes to first, R3 on third comes home.  All other runners , and players from bench come out on to field to celebrate.

I kick rocks around as I know they celebrated prematurely as runners did not complete their running responsibilities as i was watching home and 3rd base, partner was watching 2nd for touches.  It was a bit delayed, we started to walk off, and coach yells Mike throw it to 3rd base.  I immediately signal OUT, and said RUN does not score.  (the other team wins in the bottom of next inning)... crazy.

Anyway, this weekend same play, but i was on base duties.  The runner says to me i didnt even have to touch second base.  I should have said nothing, but i told you him you go touch that base now, you can be out.    But there was a twist this time and want to know what people think.   1) the PU called Game Over.   2) the baseball was thrown by the catcher to to the mound for some reason, and the runner touched the somewhat live ball?  I then told him to go touch third.

Was that ball still live?  could I have called him out?

[SH0102]

I am rusty on my FED rule on this, but in NCAA and OBR, only the batter-runner and R3 must fulfill their obligations to touch the next base, R1 and R2 do not have to.

I am curious what others think because when I read what you said to the runners, that sounds an awful lot like "coaching", and if I was the defensive coach who wanted to appeal, I would be incredulous that I lost that chance because I heard you tell him to go touch the base.  Now, if the runner asked me directly "do I need to touch the next base", I might give a smart-aleck answer like "even if you didn't, is it worth the risk to not run 20 more feet?" because in my mind, there is no reason not to go touch the base.  You do it all game every game for years, so why do you need to go celebrate 1.4 seconds earlier?

As for the ball, that is not a batted ball, so touching it means nothing unless he intentionally interfered with a play.  The catcher rolling the ball on the ground and he kicks while running to celebrate is a whole lot of nothing.

[SH0102]

Oh, and to answer your question in the title....they lose the right to appeal when the infielders have left fair territory and the catcher has left the "dirt circle" (plate area if there is no defined circle)

[Umpire942]

8 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

I am rusty on my FED rule on this, but in NCAA and OBR, only the batter-runner and R3 must fulfill their obligations to touch the next base, R1 and R2 do not have to.

I am curious what others think because when I read what you said to the runners, that sounds an awful lot like "coaching", and if I was the defensive coach who wanted to appeal, I would be incredulous that I lost that chance because I heard you tell him to go touch the base.  Now, if the runner asked me directly "do I need to touch the next base", I might give a smart-aleck answer like "even if you didn't, is it worth the risk to not run 20 more feet?" because in my mind, there is no reason not to go touch the base.  You do it all game every game for years, so why do you need to go celebrate 1.4 seconds earlier?

As for the ball, that is not a batted ball, so touching it means nothing unless he intentionally interfered with a play.  The catcher rolling the ball on the ground and he kicks while running to celebrate is a whole lot of nothing.

 

I would never help the runner, but i can tell you, everybody thought the game was over except me.

 

6 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

Oh, and to answer your question in the title....they lose the right to appeal when the infielders have left fair territory and the catcher has left the "dirt circle" (plate area if there is no defined circle)

all infielders did not leave fair territory yet

[noumpere]

34 minutes ago, Umpire942 said:

I kick rocks around as I know they celebrated prematurely

You should act just as you would if the runner had touched the base -- that is, leave the field expeditiously (but don't rush off, or try to hide)

35 minutes ago, Umpire942 said:

1) the PU called Game Over.

That means nothing (and is not part of the mechanics).  The rest of the play then seems to answer itself

36 minutes ago, Umpire942 said:

I should have said nothing

Yep -- and if you are leaving the field, you won't need to say anything

24 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

I am rusty on my FED rule on this, but in NCAA and OBR, only the batter-runner and R3 must fulfill their obligations to touch the next base, R1 and R2 do not have to.

That's true only on a walk, or HBP, or other "awarded" base.  In FED, even on these awards, all must advance.  In all codes, all must advance on a base hit.

[Jimurray]

23 minutes ago, Umpire942 said:

 

I would never help the runner, but i can tell you, everybody thought the game was over except me.

 

all infielders did not leave fair territory yet

@SH0102 is correct for NCAA/OBR but FED is different on an end of game appeal and an appeal can take place until the umpires have left the field of play.

[maven]

What noumpere said.

The OP tipped the defense in game 1 by sticking around. He hurt the defense in game 2 by coaching the runners. 

The game is over when the winning run scores. We need to leave the field as usual. Rule on appeals if and only if they're begun before we (both) get off the field (and yes, there's a definition of that).

[SH0102]

I should enhance my reading comprehension skills....when he said the catcher rolled the ball out, I assumed it was a walk, hit by pitch, etc, some play that ended with the catcher holding the ball. With the bases loaded in tie game, bottom of last inning, on a clean hit, there is rarely, if ever, a throw home for the catcher to have the ball to roll out.

[Umpire942]

47 minutes ago, maven said:

What noumpere said.

The OP tipped the defense in game 1 by sticking around. He hurt the defense in game 2 by coaching the runners. 

The game is over when the winning run scores. We need to leave the field as usual. Rule on appeals if and only if they're begun before we (both) get off the field (and yes, there's a definition of that).

i did not tip the defense in game one, they picked up on that appeal on their own.  "me saying kicking rocks" i, literally took 5 seconds to look at what the base runners did, and what his did, and BU came in running into the plate and were collecting drinks and items.  Were were not literally kicking rocks and staying on the field.  There is no rule that we have to leave the field immediately after the game is over and have to rush off.

 

Game 2 was more of a no, no.  But nobody had any clue, and thankfully I was right as no appeal was made or even though about, gave the runner a teachable moment and made him touch.

 

The main QUESTION in this thread was touching that no batted ball, if that was any violation. 

[noumpere]

4 hours ago, Umpire942 said:

The main QUESTION in this thread was touching that no batted ball, if that was any violation. 

Well, what;s the rule when an offensive player touches a thrown ball?  Does it rise to INT?

[Umpire942]

33 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Well, what;s the rule when an offensive player touches a thrown ball?  Does it rise to INT?

but PU said game over, ball is dead no? only appeals can happen.  If it was live and intentionally touched he would be out not INT

[noumpere]

2 minutes ago, Umpire942 said:

but PU said game over, ball is dead no? only appeals can happen.  If it was live and intentionally touched he would be out not INT

Why would he be out, if it wasn't INT?

 

And, is there something in the rule book where the umpire says "game over" and it means something?  Or, is it just a (bad) habit that too many youth umpires get into?

[Umpire942]

1 minute ago, noumpere said:

Why would he be out, if it wasn't INT?

 

And, is there something in the rule book where the umpire says "game over" and it means something?  Or, is it just a (bad) habit that too many youth umpires get into?

INT/OUT yes sorry

 

I am breaking down just this subject.  A baseball game is completed.  But we all know the general rule, its not over until both umpires leave.  So im elaborating on this grey area here.  Where the PU says "GAME OVER".  Is the ball dead at this time.  I would assume so

[noumpere]

7 minutes ago, Umpire942 said:

INT/OUT yes sorry

 

I am breaking down just this subject.  A baseball game is completed.  But we all know the general rule, its not over until both umpires leave.  So im elaborating on this grey area here.  Where the PU says "GAME OVER".  Is the ball dead at this time.  I would assume so

If it's dead, then how can the defense make an appeal?  The ball can't be dead for some purposes but live for others.

[SH0102]

So asking probing questions is not working, so here’s straight to point:

Touching the ball is nothing unless he is intentionally INT with a play.  Rolling a ball to mound is not a play.

Saying game over means nothing and does not make the ball dead, or the game over.  If you want to be technical, the game is over when the last out is recorded or winning run is scored in bottom of last inning, AND defense has left the infield and plate area.

You are correct there is no rule you must disappear like the wind when the last run scores, but if defense hasn’t appealed by time you and partner leave field together, I doubt they will later.

Just end game like you would anyways, don’t coach runners, and if defense appeals in proper time, then make your call.  Everything else is nothing

[Umpire942]

16 hours ago, noumpere said:

If it's dead, then how can the defense make an appeal?  The ball can't be dead for some purposes but live for others.

appeals are made live, and durring dead ball all the time, and in the play above could have claimed the other runner who i did not whisper to, didnt touch third.

But as for dead for some live for others obviously not.  You will not answer the question.  So as I am going to continue to assume, if a game winning run comes in.  (even though base runners have to continue their running responsibilities) the ball is dead.

 

[SH0102]

17 minutes ago, Umpire942 said:

appeals are made live, and durring dead ball all the time, and in the play above could have claimed the other runner who i did not whisper to, didnt touch third.

But as for dead for some live for others obviously not.  You will not answer the question.  So as I am going to continue to assume, if a game winning run comes in.  (even though base runners have to continue their running responsibilities) the ball is dead.

 

If the base runners have not completed their obligations to touch the next base, the ball is most certainly not dead.

You can walk off Diamond like the game is over (so as not to tip off an appeal would be valid), but the ball is not dead.

Imagine scenario…bases loaded, tie game, bottom of 9th , ncaa game (where appeals must be done when live)

Guy hits a gapper, everyone cheers and screams and mobs batter at first, including R1 who never touched second.

Savvy outfielder sees this, chases ball down at fence, throws to SS standing at second.  

You telling me you’re gonna make them reset, next batter in box , pitcher on rubber, say play, step off, throw to second “because the ball was dead?”

It was very much alive and R1 is out when they throw to second (barring all INF having left infield)

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Umpire942 said:

So as I am going to continue to assume, if a game winning run comes in.  (even though base runners have to continue their running responsibilities) the ball is dead.

 

You should re-vist that assumption.  It's wrong.

[MadMax]

On 10/19/2021 at 7:17 AM, Umpire942 said:

This was FED rules.

 

On 10/19/2021 at 1:51 PM, Umpire942 said:

but PU said game over, ball is dead no?

Well, if you’re clinging to Fed rules so emphatically, then you can breathe easy… because even if the ball is Dead because PU bellowed “Game Over!” (which it doesn’t do, but regardless), Fed is the lone rule set that allows for dead-ball verbal appeals. No making the ball Live again, no throws / tags necessary. 

But this odd perspective opens up Pandora’s box… if base touches “don’t count” for the purposes of an appeal during a dead ball, then what are we to do if the game-winning play is a dead-ball event, such as a HBP with bases loaded, or a Balk, or a U3K with the pitched ball going out of play? Are we to play the grand game of “Gotcha!” and wait for all Runners, including the BR who may need medical attention on a HBP, to touch their awarded base(s), and if they don’t, call ‘em Out?! 

Thing is, there’s no time limit, nor letter-of-the-law, when adjudicating things of this nature. Even during a live ball walk, does the BR have to go to 1B in a straight, direct line? Not necessarily… I’ve seen BRs vector to the dugout, drop off their protective gear, pick up their sunglasses, and exchange helmets with the next hitter, all before touching (obtaining) 1B. 

On 10/19/2021 at 7:17 AM, Umpire942 said:

2) the baseball was thrown by the catcher to to the mound for some reason, and the runner touched the somewhat live ball?  Was that ball still live?  could I have called him out?

First, just like there are no ties in baseball, there is no “somewhat” live (or dead) ball. It’s either Live, or Dead. Period. In all rulesets, there are events or actions that kill a baseball (eg. HBP, INT), and in Fed, there are three “killing words” – Foul, Time, and Balk. Your partner bellowing “Game Over!” or “Ball game!” doesn’t kill that baseball. However, the event – the game-winning run scoring, is what kills the baseball. Let’s look at an inning-ending event for a similar interpretation: let’s say we have a ballpark with dugouts very close to the plate area. Let’s say we have R3, and a catcher who believes there are 2 outs (when there’s actually 1 out only). Batter strikes out, and the catcher keeps the ball in his mitt and dashes into his dugout. Since it’s (now) only 2 outs, that’s a Dead ball, since it was carried into DBT by a fielder, and a base award. Score R3. But what’s different about it being 2 outs? Because the batter striking out for the third out is an event that makes the ball dead, so it doesn’t matter where the ball goes or what the catcher does with it. 

How many times have you called Out a Runner who has been hit or touched by a _thrown_ ball (RLI notwithstanding)? Why were you poised to do so in your posted scenario? 

[Umpire942]

On 10/20/2021 at 11:13 AM, noumpere said:

You should re-vist that assumption.  It's wrong.

ya after a month coming back to the website, not sure who typed that lol

[Guest Jim]

On 10/25/2021 at 8:35 PM, MadMax said:

However, the event – the game-winning run scoring, is what kills the baseball.

No it doesn't.

The game ends when the winning run has scored and the defense cannot record outs that would nullify that run (forces, BR at 1st, appeals on the winning runner or preceding runners.)

 

Obvious example: Bottom of the last inning, tie game. R3, 2 out. Batter hits a ground ball to F6, who throws it to first. R3 crosses the plate before BR is put out at first.

[MadMax]

10 hours ago, Guest Jim said:

No it doesn't.

You’re quoting me out of context. I was replying that the event – whatever it is, and your detailed description is valid – is an action that causes the baseball to be Dead… not the PU bellowing “Ball game!”

[beerguy55]

On 2/12/2022 at 10:25 PM, Guest Jim said:

No it doesn't.

The game ends when the winning run has scored and the defense cannot record outs that would nullify that run (forces, BR at 1st, appeals on the winning runner or preceding runners.)

 

Obvious example: Bottom of the last inning, tie game. R3, 2 out. Batter hits a ground ball to F6, who throws it to first. R3 crosses the plate before BR is put out at first.

That's like saying an NFL overtime game ends when the winning TD has scored AND replay reviews confirm it.  It's not a TD if it's not confirmed...if it's not confirmed it can't be a TD, let alone a winning TD.

Your statement is redundant (or impossible depending on how you look at it), and by extension, moot.  If the BR makes the third out at first (or other applicable scenario) the offense can't score...by extension there can't be a run at all, let alone a winning run.  Your second condition is a prerequisite for the first.  Besides the conditions for what makes an official run...the word "winning" is important.  A game cannot be won or lost until it is over.  A winning run can only be identified as such when the game is over.  Whether you scored the (eventual) winning run in the top of the sixth or the bottom of the ninth it is not a winning run unless the game is over.   This simply happens concurrently in walk-off situations.

For all intents and purposes a run isn't a run until all the conditions are met.  It might be a "pending" run, or an apparent run, until the conditions to undo said run are removed, including appeals, but it's not an actual run, nor winning run, until then.    The runner has "scored" only in the context of defining his status in passing home, for enforcing other rules as necessary.   There is no run until it is official...that is true with no out at the top of the first, and true in an apparent walk off in the bottom of the last.

The official scoresheet at the end of the game doesn't say that the score was 4-3, then it was 3-3 because the run was removed...it simply says the third out was made and no run is counted.  No different than a TD that gets overturned on replay review because the receiver was out of bounds...it's simply recorded as an incomplete pass...not a touchdown followed by an un-touchdown.

@MadMaxis being a bit hard on himself...his statement doesn't need context.  It's correct on its merit.   The winning run is such because all the conditions have been met to make it so.  The game is over at that point.

 

[Senor Azul]

NFHS Rule 8 Section 2 is titled Touching, Occupying and Returning to a Base. Rule 8-2-1 requires the runner to touch every base, in order, including any awarded bases. The penalty for violation of 8-2-1 authorizes an appeal, which may be made during a live ball immediately following the play, or a dead ball. Specifically looking at the final play of the game, the procedure states: A dead-ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with or without the ball by verbally stating that the runner missed the base or left the base too early...On the last play of the game, an appeal can be made until the umpire(s) leave the field of play. (Rule 8-2-6j states, If any situation arises which could lead to an appeal by the defense on the last play of the game, the appeal must be made while an umpire is still on the field of play.)

And just for fun high school Rule 9-1-1 Note 2 does talk about an umpire declaring the game over…

"When the winning run is scored in the last half inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases loaded which forces the runner on third base to advance, the umpire shall not declare the game over until all runners have advanced to the next base."