Throwing glove at a live baseball?

[SeeingEyeDog]

3 base award all codes? Is there judgement of intent? Must the glove actually contact the baseball or is the attempt (meaning detachment of the equipment) enough to call this? Any other wrinkles to be aware of in this situation?

~Dawg

[Senor Azul]

Yes, there is umpire judgment involved and yes the detached equipment must actually touch the ball. FED addresses the issue of detached equipment in rules 8-3-3a-c (the base awards), 8-3-4, and 8-3-5a. It also has case plays dealing with this issue—

8.3.3C for usage of detached equipment on a thrown ball

8.3.3F for usage of detached equipment on a batted ball

8.3.3L for usage of detached equipment on a pitched ball

However, the FED does not go into detail about the actual mechanics the umpire should use on this kind of play. In fact, the only place I could find where the mechanics are discussed is in the 2013 Wendelstedt manual—I originally posted the following in August 2019.

“The umpire will immediately signal a three-base award. The ball is left in play and runners may advance beyond their award at their own peril. If the defense gains possession of the ball, and no runner is attempting to advance, the umpire will call time and award the runners their bases.

“If, when the defense gains possession of the ball, at least one runner is attempting to advance, the umpire will leave the ball in play until all action ceases, or until a runner is tagged before reaching his awarded base.”

P101:  No one on, no outs, 1-2 count. The batter lines the next pitch fair down the first baseline. The right fielder throws his glove and strikes the ball just before the BR reaches first base. The ball shoots farther away into foul territory. When the right fielder finally throws the ball into the infield, the BR (a) has stopped at second base. (b) is tagged while sliding into third base. (c) reaches third base safely. (d) is tagged while sliding into the plate.

Ruling:  The umpire should signal a three-base award when the ball is touched. In (a), the umpire should call time and award the BR third base. In (b), the umpire should call time when the BR is tagged, and award him third base. In (c) and (d), the play stands.

[maven]

The mechanics of this are like other live-ball awards: point to it and verbalize it, preferably not repeatedly or over-loud (which tends to kill the action).

Note that the violation is for touching the ball with the detached equipment, not merely for detaching the equipment.  

Here, I'd point to it, verbalize "That's detached equipment!" and signal 3 bases.

With 3-base award, there's often not much more that's going to happen. But a detached equipment award for a thrown ball (2 bases) or pitched ball (1 base) can see further action.

[agdz59]

9 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

3 base award all codes? Is there judgement of intent? Must the glove actually contact the baseball or is the attempt (meaning detachment of the equipment) enough to call this? Any other wrinkles to be aware of in this situation?

~Dawg

NFHS 8-3-3-b states the ball must be a batted ball touched by the detached equipment. Only other wrinkle is the ball must be fair, or a ball over foul ground that is judged fair or has the chance to be fair.

[maven]

Sorry, I forgot a rules difference. For OBR the award is 3-2-1 for detached equipment.

For FED, touching either a thrown or pitched ball is a 2 base award. 8-3-3c(1).

[SeeingEyeDog]

Thank you, gentlemen...this is extremely helpful. Clearly, I need more focus here.

Hypothetical#1 (FED): With R1 only on first, a legally pitched ball (not struck by the batter) trickles away from F2. He removes his mask and throws it to stop the baseball.

Call: The play is booked dead, R1 is awarded 2 bases and advances to third. If the pitch was not ball 4 or strike 3, the at-bat resumes.

Hypothetical#2 (FED): With R1 only on first, a legally pitched ball is struck by the batter and is rolling slowly out in front of the plate in fair territory. Again, F2 removes his mask and throws it to stop the baseball.

Call: The play is booked dead, R1 is awarded home which scores one run. If the pitch was not ball 4 or strike 3, the at-bat resumes.

How'd I do?

~Dawg

[LRZ]

In #2, why would you bring the BR, who hit a fair ball, back to the plate? I'm not conversant with FED rules, but it would seem that the BR either gets third (8-1-1, "a batter becomes a runner when....") or, at least, first (8-1-2).

In the 2d scenario under OBR, the batter/BR would be awarded third. Rule 5.06(b)(4)(B): "Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance: Three bases, if a fielder deliberately touches a fair ball with his cap, mask or any part of his uniform detached from its proper place on his person. The ball is in play and the batter may advance to home base at his peril...."

[maven]

3 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Thank you, gentlemen...this is extremely helpful. Clearly, I need more focus here.

Hypothetical#1 (FED): With R1 only on first, a legally pitched ball (not struck by the batter) trickles away from F2. He removes his mask and throws it to stop the baseball.

Call: The play is booked dead, R1 is awarded 2 bases and advances to third. If the pitch was not ball 4 or strike 3, the at-bat resumes.

Hypothetical#2 (FED): With R1 only on first, a legally pitched ball is struck by the batter and is rolling slowly out in front of the plate in fair territory. Again, F2 removes his mask and throws it to stop the baseball.

Call: The play is booked dead, R1 is awarded home which scores one run. If the pitch was not ball 4 or strike 3, the at-bat resumes.

How'd I do?

~Dawg

In neither play do you specify whether the detached equipment touched the ball. If not, it's nothing.

If so, the ruling is play 1 is correct. More common is removing a mask to "corral" a loose ball. It's a live ball, but the pitch will end and we'll kill it once F2 gets control.

For play 2, if it's a fair ball, all runners are awarded 3 bases, including the BR. Moreover, it's a live ball: we wouldn't kill it (what is "booked dead?" — never heard that expression) until the defense had played on a runner, at which time we'd make our awards, starting with the lead runner (to R1: "you, score!"; to BR: "you, 3B!").

[SeeingEyeDog]

Thanks for the additional context, @maven...I apologize for not being more specific in my scenarios.

Booking it...I don't know...that's just local lingo where I work. "Ok coach, now if the ball gets lodged under the fence, please have your fielders put their hands up and we will book that."

Translated into shorthand...according to the rule book, that play is now dead.

~Dawg

[Velho]

[MadMax]

22 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

that's just local lingo where I work.

 

22 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Translated into shorthand...according to the rule book, that play is now dead.

That “local lingo” is used in many other places, too. There’s a common theme – it’s local. IE Amateur. 

During a plate meeting, covering the ground rules for most defined ballparks, there are zones and boundaries that divide Live Ball from Dead Ball territory. Occasionally, there are objects or structures that project into Live Ball territory (the zip lines that @Stk004 , @tpatience , @Biscuit , and @The Short Umpire all know of) that kill a batted ball, but keep a thrown ball Live. AFAIK, sanctioned HS Varsity fields, college fields, and any fields & parks used for semi-pro or pro baseball are going to treat a ball entering or contacting Dead Ball Territory the same from field to field – a pitched ball is 1 base, a thrown ball from a fielder is 2 bases, and a Fair batted ball is 2 bases – ie. In accordance to the (Rule)Book. 

This is where the term “Book It” comes from. 

Where this gets problematic is when a (home) coach, or an umpire, loosely refers to a ground rule event – “book it” – without knowing what the actual award is! Using this shorthand is, in a way, masking this lack of knowledge (or ignorance) because it sounds official. 

Certainly, there are parks & fields on the local, amateur level that have special ground rules, typically invoking a ground-rule triple, or sometimes a home run, without an actual fence, wall, or boundary structure being present. These base awards or placements cannot be referred to as “booked”… because they aren’t in an official Rulebook. 

“Booked” ≠ the ball is Dead. The ball is dead because it crossed a DBT boundary or touched a DBT object that was defined in the ground rules. “Booked” = the base awards or placements. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

@MadMax, YMMV...that's not how my association uses that term.

~Dawg

[noumpere]

On 6/25/2021 at 3:31 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

. "Ok coach, now if the ball gets lodged under the fence, please have your fielders put their hands up and we will book that."

Translated into shorthand...according to the rule book, that play is now dead.

 

A fielder putting his hands up does NOT make the ball dead.  It's (a) a signal to the umpire to come out and look at the ball and (b) a way to show everyone that the fielder did not touch the ball so that*IF* the ball is lodged it was the force buy the batter that made it so.

I have had multiple times where the fielder put his hands up and I judged the ball to NOT be lodged.  Sometimes the runners stopped but sometimes they kept running and scored before the fielder could then retrieve the ball and throw it back in

[MadMax]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

A fielder putting his hands up does NOT make the ball dead.  It's (a) a signal to the umpire to come out and look at the ball and (b) a way to show everyone that the fielder did not touch the ball so that*IF* the ball is lodged it was the force buy the batter that made it so.

Huh. Sounds like “proper mileage”, @SeeingEyeDog. 

Has the/your association ever been asked what these terms actually mean – “book it” and “fielders hands up” – and given a logical, rules-based answer as to why? 

[SeeingEyeDog]

Hang on @MadMax, lemme' try to understand this...

If one person uses a phrase and it mean this...and another person uses the same phrase and it means that...then the mileage is clearly varied.

~Dawg

[MadMax]

On 6/27/2021 at 1:58 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

If one person uses a phrase and it mean this...and another person uses the same phrase and it means that...then the mileage is clearly varied.

Not when “this” is the actual meaning, and “that” has notable differences in process, application, and execution from “this”. 

I’m not advocating against using it; I’m advocating against using it without knowing what it means or implies in every instance it covers. And if you’re telling me that your entire association uses it, then they best be ensuring all of their members are on the same page, and are equal and uniform in the process, application and execution of “booking it”. From the read of things, they don’t. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

11 hours ago, MadMax said:

Not when “this” is the actual meaning, and “that” has notable differences in process, application, and execution from “this”. 

I’m not advocating against using it; I’m advocating against using it without knowing what it means or implies in every instance it covers. And if you’re telling me that your entire association uses it, then they best be ensuring all of their members are on the same page, and are equal and uniform in the process, application and execution of “booking it”. From the read of things, they don’t. 

Ok, @MadMax...

~Dawg

[The Man in Blue]

Despite @MadMax's claim to the official usage of a term I have NEVER heard used in my 40 years around the game (10+ years of umpiring, another 10+ years of coaching and running a local program, and another 10+ years of playing, and some down time in there) ... 

 

The only "Book It" I am familiar with is ...

[The Man in Blue]

13 hours ago, MadMax said:

Not when “this” is the actual meaning, and “that” has notable differences in process, application, and execution from “this”. 

I’m not advocating against using it; I’m advocating against using it without knowing what it means ... 

 

I see umpires do this with actual rules all the time.  😁