catch/lodged ball?

[Richvee]

reading the new issue of Referee magazine, baseball quiz. 

5. B1 hits a soft liner to F6 who juggles the ball. The ball eventually ends up inside F6's jersey as B1 holds at 1B. 

a. B1 is out

b. B1 is awarded 1B

c. B1 is awarded 2B

Answer says "A" for all, citing definition of a catch, and citing 8-3-3c (base awards for a lodged ball) as their rule cites. 

Why isn't this a lodged ball, with  OBR and NCAA awarding 1B, and FED 2B? 

 

 

[maven]

This is not a catch, as it is not held securely in hand or glove.

When the umpire rules that the batted ball has lodged, it becomes dead (FED 5-1-1f, etc.), and can no longer be caught for an out (no longer a live ball in flight).

Once dead, the umpire will make appropriate awards (differ by code).

Referee's rulings have always been ... questionable.

[grayhawk]

I had something similar in a Fed game this year.  Chopper hit to F3 with F1 covering.  F3 shovels the ball to F1 who mishandles it and it goes inside his jersey and he then steps on first prior to the BR.  It took me a second to see that the ball was inside his uniform and then F1 even said, "I have it!  I caught in my jersey!"

Me:  "Time!  That's a lodged ball!  You, second base!"

[Richvee]

Thanks guys. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something...or losing my mind. 

[maven]

Thanks guys. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something...or losing my mind. 

I'm not qualified to rule on the latter.

[grayhawk]

How about this one:

R1 with no outs and R1 is stealing.  B2 hits a grounder to F6 who throws to first for the out.  The ball beats the BR and when F3 goes to remove the ball from his glove, he cannot because the ball is lodged in the webbing  After several tries, he finally asks for time.  R1 had not yet reached second when the ball left F6's hand.  Is the BR out?  Are bases awarded?

Ruling for OBR, FED and NCAA?

[maven]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

How about this one:

R1 with no outs and R1 is stealing.  B2 hits a grounder to F6 who throws to first for the out.  The ball beats the BR and when F3 goes to remove the ball from his glove, he cannot because the ball is lodged in the webbing  After several tries, he finally asks for time.  R1 had not yet reached second when the ball left F6's hand.  Is the BR out?  Are bases awarded?

Ruling for OBR, FED and NCAA?

I didn't see that the ball was stuck until it became dead. Play on.

The lodged ball rule is intended to address the situation where the defense can't play on a runner because the ball is inaccessible. We need to work within that concept. That's not what we have in your play, so we're not going to trouble trouble.

Had R1 noticed that F3 couldn't retrieve the ball and tried to advance (before I granted time), then the ruling might be different.

[grayhawk]

18 minutes ago, maven said:

I didn't see that the ball was stuck until it became dead. Play on.

The lodged ball rule is intended to address the situation where the defense can't play on a runner because the ball is inaccessible. We need to work within that concept. That's not what we have in your play, so we're not going to trouble trouble.

Had R1 noticed that F3 couldn't retrieve the ball and tried to advance (before I granted time), then the ruling might be different.

Interesting take.  In OBR and NCAA, a ball "stuck" in a fielder's glove is a live ball, so I think you just play it out.  If R1 isn't trying to advance, then I would grant time when requested.  If he is trying to advance, then it's play on, just like when a ball is stuck in a pitcher's glove and he tosses it to first to put out the BR.

In Fed, I don't think there is any way to get around awarding R1 two bases since F3 made several unsuccessful attempts to dislodge the ball.  Fed is clear on this issue.  What is not clear is whether the ball can be considered securely held prior to the ball becoming lodged.  If we say it was the first play by an infielder (F6), then how can we justify calling the BR out?  If we DO call the BR out, then we would have to rule that the ball became lodged subsequent to secure possession, which means that it should be a TOT award which means R1 scores.

A similar play to this one happened in a Fed game this year.  The difference is that the BR was the third out, so the inning was over.  The umpire didn't notice that the ball was stuck until F3 was going to toss the ball towards the mound.

[Richvee]

FWIW, in FED, I think I'd have an out @1B. (Can't get much more secure than lodged ).  I'm on the same page as Maven here. If R1 stops at 2B, and there's no further action, call time, get the ball out and get it to the pitcher. If R1 rounds 2B, keeps running, (or even dances to try and draw a throw) and F3 is trying to get the ball out, and can't after a few tries, I think at that point we need to kill it, and award R1 home. Then begin practicing those game management skills with the DHC.

I

[Rich Ives]

Per the MLBUM it's a God rule.  Ball is dead. Appropriate awards. NO out.

 

[noumpere]

I think FED has a case / interp where the ball is stuck for a while, Fx takes off his glove and then is able to get the ball.  The ruling is that the ball was "temporarily stuck" and not "lodged" -- no awards.  It becomes an award then the glove is thrown with the ball still inside it.

I have often thought that if this is how they want to rule this, then they should just call it displaced equipment.

[stkjock]

plenty of examples in MLB on this topic 

14 hours ago, grayhawk said:

How about this one:

R1 with no outs and R1 is stealing.  B2 hits a grounder to F6 who throws to first for the out.  The ball beats the BR and when F3 goes to remove the ball from his glove, he cannot because the ball is lodged in the webbing  After several tries, he finally asks for time.  R1 had not yet reached second when the ball left F6's hand.  Is the BR out?  Are bases awarded?

Ruling for OBR, FED and NCAA?

 

https://www.mlb.com/video/search?q=ball+stuck+in+glove

this one is probably the best example, IMHO, Belt makes the catch and the ball is stuck, umpires let it play out, with R2 not sure what to do.

 

https://www.mlb.com/video/ball-gets-stuck-in-belts-glove/c-600322883

 

[beerguy55]

19 hours ago, maven said:

This is not a catch, as it is not held securely in hand or glove.

When the umpire rules that the batted ball has lodged, it becomes dead (FED 5-1-1f, etc.), and can no longer be caught for an out (no longer a live ball in flight).

Once dead, the umpire will make appropriate awards (differ by code).

Referee's rulings have always been ... questionable.

How long does the umpire wait to rule it is "lodged" - especially when no other runners on base.  If F6 grabbed the ball, from the outside of his jersey, but clearly has ball (and jersey) in hand, would it still be an out?  Or would the player have to reach into his shirt and securely hold the ball (provided the ump hasn't already ruled it dead)?

[Rich Ives]

2 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

How long does the umpire wait to rule it is "lodged" - especially when no other runners on base.  If F6 grabbed the ball, from the outside of his jersey, but clearly has ball (and jersey) in hand, would it still be an out?  Or would the player have to reach into his shirt and securely hold the ball (provided the ump hasn't already ruled it dead)?

I posted the OBR ruling. It's dead as soon as it goes into the jersey. Award appropriate bases. No outs can be called.

[noumpere]

57 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

I posted the OBR ruling. It's dead as soon as it goes into the jersey. Award appropriate bases. No outs can be called.

Same for NCAA.  It's kind of like spectator interference -- the umpire places the runners based on where they would have been had it not occurred (the difference, of course, is that you could get an out under spectator interference).

 

In FED, it's an automatic 2-base award.

Here are the relevant rules:

NCAA:

8-3.l.    If a fair batted or thrown ball becomes lodged in a player’s uniform, the ball
shall be declared dead and bases awarded at the umpire’s discretion;

FED:

8-3-3c. two bases if a fair batted or thrown ball becomes dead because of bouncing over or passing through a fence, or lodges in a defensive player's or umpire's equipment or uniform