Is this a balk in the windup

[Guest Guest]

Bases loaded and F1 is pitching from windup. He starts with both feet on the rubber and the ball in his bare hand hanging at his side, with his glove hand hanging at his other side. He looks in for the sign, gets it, and then brings his hands together and stops. Then he winds up and pitches.

I think that when he brings his hands together, that is the start of his delivery and this is a balk. I didnt call it because it was a low level game and no one said anything, but I do want to know for future reference if this is a balk. 

Thank you sirs!

[Rich Ives]

16 minutes ago, Guest Guest said:

Bases loaded and F1 is pitching from windup. He starts with both feet on the rubber and the ball in his bare hand hanging at his side, with his glove hand hanging at his other side. He looks in for the sign, gets it, and then brings his hands together and stops. Then he winds up and pitches.

I think that when he brings his hands together, that is the start of his delivery and this is a balk. I didnt call it because it was a low level game and no one said anything, but I do want to know for future reference if this is a balk. 

Thank you sirs!

Until he joins hands he is not yet in windup position. Once there, once he starts he must continue with runners on base.

(1) The Windup Position
The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with
his free foot.
When a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and his other foot free, he will be considered in the Windup Position.

[Guest Guest Guest]

Thank you for the great reply. That is exactly what I read after the game which made me question things and post here. So my new question is, when he is in this "limbo" position with both feet engaged with the rubber but not yet in the "windup" what is he considered? What can/cant he do compared to when he is actually in the windup? For example, if he is standing with his arms at his sides like this and he disengages the mound without stepping backwards with his pivot foot, is this not a balk because he isnt in the windup yet? This is making me question everything I thought I knew.

 

[ElkOil]

6 minutes ago, Guest Guest Guest said:

Thank you for the great reply. That is exactly what I read after the game which made me question things and post here. So my new question is, when he is in this "limbo" position with both feet engaged with the rubber but not yet in the "windup" what is he considered? What can/cant he do compared to when he is actually in the windup? For example, if he is standing with his arms at his sides like this and he disengages the mound without stepping backwards with his pivot foot, is this not a balk because he isnt in the windup yet? This is making me question everything I thought I knew.

 

Time of the pitch is when the pitcher has committed himself to delivering the pitch to the batter. For the windup position, the “time of the pitch” occurs when the pitcher, (a) first starts any movement of his arm(s) or leg(s) after stepping onto the pitcher’s plate with his hands already together in front of his body; (b) with both hands at his side, first starts any movement with both arms or leg(s) prior to the pitch; (c) with either hand in front of the body and the other hand at his side, after bringing his hands together, first starts any movement of his arm(s) or leg(s) prior to the pitch.

[Jimurray]

37 minutes ago, Guest Guest said:

Bases loaded and F1 is pitching from windup. He starts with both feet on the rubber and the ball in his bare hand hanging at his side, with his glove hand hanging at his other side. He looks in for the sign, gets it, and then brings his hands together and stops. Then he winds up and pitches.

I think that when he brings his hands together, that is the start of his delivery and this is a balk. I didnt call it because it was a low level game and no one said anything, but I do want to know for future reference if this is a balk. 

Thank you sirs!

That would be the start of delivery in FED if it was called strictly. It is not the start of delivery in OBR unless "some other action is initiated by another part of his body simultaneously and is associated with the actual delivery." (PBUC/MLBUM guidance).In OBR you will know it when you see it. 

[Richvee]

A strict interpretation of the FED windup rules and caseplays may suggest F1 cannot move BOTH his hands, from his sides, together in front of his body and then stop. Moving both hands from his sides simultaneously is considered the start of the windup.*  He may, however, start with the glove hand in front of his body, and his pitching hand at his side, and then bring the pitching hand to the glove and stop.

6.1.2 SITUATION I:

With one hand at his side and the other hand in front of his body, F1 looks into the catcher for a sign from the wind-up position. He then brings his hands together and pauses. The opposing coach yells that this is a balk and that the runner on third base should score.

RULING: This is not a balk. This is a legal pitching position. The pitcher is permitted to have one hand forward prior to bringing the other hand forward.

6.1.2 SITUATION E:

With the bases loaded, F1 steps on the pitcher’s plate in the windup position with the ball in his glove hand in front of his body and his pitching hand at his side. F1 then brings his pitching hand to his glove and adjusts the ball after receiving the sign from the catcher. He then (a) delivers the pitch or (b) steps back off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot.

RULING: Legal in (a) and (b).

Note in both case plays F1's glove hand starts in front of his body, not at his side.

* That said,I don't know a single umpire that would balk a pitcher in the windup who started with both hands at his side, brought them together in front of him and stopped.

[maven]

6 hours ago, Richvee said:

A strict interpretation of the FED windup rules and caseplays may suggest F1 cannot move BOTH his hands, from his sides, together in front of his body and then stop. Moving both hands from his sides simultaneously is considered the start of the windup.* 

*SNIP*

* That said,I don't know a single umpire that would balk a pitcher in the windup who started with both hands at his side, brought them together in front of him and stopped.

Strict interpretation? This is black-letter rule, Rich. In my state we have explicit guidance to call this start/stop balk, and umpires have lost tournament games for ignoring it. And you posted irrelevant case plays.

Quote

2.28.3 SITUATION C: With R1 on third base, F1 steps on the pitcher’s plate to take a sign from F2. After taking the sign, F1 brings both hands up together in front of his body and then stops to adjust the ball.

RULING: This is balk. R1 is awarded home. The time of the pitch occurred when F1 moved both arms.

COMMENT: What is the time of the pitch for the (a) windup or (b) set position? For the windup position, the “time of the pitch” occurs when the pitcher (a) after stepping onto the pitcher’s plate, with both hands in front of his body first starts any movement of his arm(s) or leg(s) prior to delivering the pitch; (b) with both hands at his side, he first starts any movement with both arms or the non-pivot foot prior to delivering the pitch; (c) with either hand in front of his body and the other hand at his side, after bringing his hands together, he first starts any movement of his arm(s) or leg(s) prior to delivering the pitch. In (b), it occurs the instant the pitcher, after coming to a complete and discernible stop, starts any movement with arm(s) and/or leg(s) that commits him to pitch.

[noumpere]

8 hours ago, Richvee said:

A strict interpretation of the FED windup rules and caseplays may suggest F1 cannot move BOTH his hands, from his sides, together in front of his body and then stop. Moving both hands from his sides simultaneously is considered the start of the windup.*  He may, however, start with the glove hand in front of his body, and his pitching hand at his side, and then bring the pitching hand to the glove and stop.

 

He may also start with both hands at his sides, move one (usually the glove, but it needn't be) to the front, pause, then move the other to join, and then pitch.

 

I call these permutations "the FED macarena."

[scrounge]

10 hours ago, Richvee said:

* That said,I don't know a single umpire that would balk a pitcher in the windup who started with both hands at his side, brought them together in front of him and stopped.

Well, you know one now! As @maven said, this is a point of emphasis in our state. Also, one of the larger suburban teams right near here habitually points this out, consciously looking for it.

In fact, not only did I call it last year, but the coach immediately yelled out - to get on his pitcher for it.

[Jimurray]

11 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Until he joins hands he is not yet in windup position. Once there, once he starts he must continue with runners on base.

(1) The Windup Position
The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with
his free foot.
When a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and his other foot free, he will be considered in the Windup Position.

 

11 hours ago, Guest Guest Guest said:

Thank you for the great reply. That is exactly what I read after the game which made me question things and post here. So my new question is, when he is in this "limbo" position with both feet engaged with the rubber but not yet in the "windup" what is he considered? What can/cant he do compared to when he is actually in the windup? For example, if he is standing with his arms at his sides like this and he disengages the mound without stepping backwards with his pivot foot, is this not a balk because he isnt in the windup yet? This is making me question everything I thought I knew.

 

Unfortunately, @Rich Ives reply was not great or correct for OBR. PBUC/MLBUM give guidance that the mere moving of both arms is not the start of his pitch unless there is simultaneous movement of another body part, usually the free leg. A pitcher can move both arms to a stop in OBR and you will see it in professional and amateur baseball. FED of course is different.

 

[Rich Ives]

7 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

 

Unfortunately, @Rich Ives reply was not great or correct for OBR. PBUC/MLBUM give guidance that the mere moving of both arms is not the start of his pitch unless there is simultaneous movement of another body part, usually the free leg. A pitcher can move both arms to a stop in OBR and you will see it in professional and amateur baseball. FED of course is different.

 

That's what I said.  Moving both arms to get to windup is not a balk because until the hands are together you are not in windup position in the first place.

[Jimurray]

2 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

That's what I said.

It was not that clear to me. But, this

" Until he joins hands he is not yet in windup position."

is not correct. F1 can take the rubber with one or both arms at his side and go directly into a windup and does not even have to windup or touch hands.

[Richvee]

4 hours ago, maven said:

Strict interpretation? This is black-letter rule, Rich. In my state we have explicit guidance to call this start/stop balk, and umpires have lost tournament games for ignoring it. And you posted irrelevant case plays.

I showed the case plays that allow moving one arm at a time. Forgot the one you showed was in sec 2. 

25 minutes ago, scrounge said:

Well, you know one now! As @maven said, this is a point of emphasis in our state. Also, one of the larger suburban teams right near here habitually points this out, consciously looking for it.

In fact, not only did I call it last year, but the coach immediately yelled out - to get on his pitcher for it.

Isn't it crazy the way rules are emphasized state by state? 

VolUmp has coaches sitting on buckets outside the dugout. We wouldn't lose tournament assignments for that..... we'd lose regular season games. 

[KenBAZ]

Guys, F1 steps up on the rubber RT foot, left foot with his hands by his side then brings them up together right away in front of his body to establish his wind-up position and you are balking him? I don't think that is happening but it sounds like that's what is being advised. I don't see pitchers engaging with their hands together. Please help me to understand what your looking for.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

[Jimurray]

11 hours ago, Guest Guest Guest said:

Thank you for the great reply. That is exactly what I read after the game which made me question things and post here. So my new question is, when he is in this "limbo" position with both feet engaged with the rubber but not yet in the "windup" what is he considered? What can/cant he do compared to when he is actually in the windup? For example, if he is standing with his arms at his sides like this and he disengages the mound without stepping backwards with his pivot foot, is this not a balk because he isnt in the windup yet? This is making me question everything I thought I knew.

 

A pitcher engaged with the rubber must step off legally. With arms at his sides he may be in the windup or stretch depending on some other things but he has to disengage legally.

[scrounge]

6 minutes ago, KenBAZ said:

Guys, F1 steps up on the rubber RT foot, left foot with his hands by his side then brings them up together right away in front of his body to establish his wind-up position and you are balking him? I don't think that is happening but it sounds like that's what is being advised. I don't see pitchers engaging with their hands together. Please help me to understand what your looking for.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
 

No, that's just getting your starting position, which is fine. I'm talking about - and our POI and the Fed rule talk about - the case when the pitcher is already in position, hands at side, then moves both arms and clearly stops.

[noumpere]

19 minutes ago, KenBAZ said:

Guys, F1 steps up on the rubber RT foot, left foot with his hands by his side then brings them up together right away in front of his body to establish his wind-up position and you are balking him? I don't think that is happening but it sounds like that's what is being advised. I don't see pitchers engaging with their hands together. Please help me to understand what your looking for.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
 

Not at all (I don't' think -- some areas might vary).  The rule says "the balk regulations begin when the pitcher intentionally contacts the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot." (or words to that effect).  What it means is "The balk regulations begin after the pitcher is "comfortable" on the rubber."  The actions you describe are part of "getting comfortable."  If there's some delay -- and especially after F1 has taken his signs -- then you are more likely to see this as a balk.

[Richvee]

I actually had a SP doing this all game last week. 2 respectable long time HS HC's.  Not a peep from anyone. SP's HC was coaching 1B and after this SP was out of the game, I asked him if anyone ever mentioned his windup being illegal because he takes a sign then brings both hands together in front of his body and stops. Looked at me and said "He's been doing that for 3 years, no one's ever even mentioned it, is this something new like with the hybrid?" 

[Tborze]

On April 16, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Richvee said:

I actually had a SP doing this all game last week. 2 respectable long time HS HC's.  Not a peep from anyone. SP's HC was coaching 1B and after this SP was out of the game, I asked him if anyone ever mentioned his windup being illegal because he takes a sign then brings both hands together in front of his body and stops. Looked at me and said "He's been doing that for 3 years, no one's ever even mentioned it, is this something new like with the hybrid?" 

If there are no runners on, it would be nothing IMO

In FED, if there are runners on, the rule is specific. Balk

Follow up question  

if in the wind up and you step back off the rubber, doesn't it say somewhere you have to separate your hands as you step off? 

IOW: simulating the pitch

 

[noumpere]

8 hours ago, Tborze said:

If there are no runners on, it would be nothing IMO

In FED, if there are runners on, the rule is specific. Balk

Follow up question  

if in the wind up and you step back off the rubber, doesn't it say somewhere you have to separate your hands as you step off? 

IOW: simulating the pitch

 

No, that's not what the rule means (assuming there's no other action like raising the arms, etc).  F1 only needs to separate the hands before re-engaging the rubber, and even if he attempts to re-engage without separating the hands, it's a "don't do that" and not a balk.

[Guest youngblue]

A pitcher is in the wind-up poistion, hands together. Runner on first. The runner breaks for second base. Can the pitcher try to pick-off the runner at second without "disengaging legally" (disengaging his pivot foot then separate his hands) ? 

 

second question: LHP, R2. The lefty is in the set poition, stops, then raises his free foot to finally finish with his foot on the ground, just in front of him, without going towards home and without tepping towards 2nd base to try to pickoff the runner. In fact, it was a feint to pickoff at 2nd, without moving the free foot towards the base. Legal move? 

[noumpere]

28 minutes ago, Guest youngblue said:

A pitcher is in the wind-up poistion, hands together. Runner on first. The runner breaks for second base. Can the pitcher try to pick-off the runner at second without "disengaging legally" (disengaging his pivot foot then separate his hands) ? 

 

second question: LHP, R2. The lefty is in the set poition, stops, then raises his free foot to finally finish with his foot on the ground, just in front of him, without going towards home and without tepping towards 2nd base to try to pickoff the runner. In fact, it was a feint to pickoff at 2nd, without moving the free foot towards the base. Legal move? 

1)  Yes under OBR and NCAA; no under FED (throwing to a base from the windup is prohibited)

2) Balk.  Even on a feint, a step is needed (arm motion is not required).  On a feint to second, the free foot must clear the rubber.

[grozzly]

15 minutes ago, noumpere said:

1)  Yes under OBR and NCAA; no under FED (throwing to a base from the windup is prohibited)

2) Balk.  Even on a feint, a step is needed (arm motion is not required).  On a feint to second, the free foot must clear the rubber.

What if, in the same play, the pitcher's free foot lands towards first instead of second base in this strange attempt of pickoff move to second? 

[maven]

19 minutes ago, grozzly said:

What if, in the same play, the pitcher's free foot lands towards first instead of second base in this strange attempt of pickoff move to second? 

That would be a balk. The step must gain distance and direction toward the base thrown or (if legal) feinted to.