Hit Ball Finds Everyone On the Field

[tankmjg24]

So had this play happen to a fellow umpire and he called asking about the interpretation.

FED Rules, R2 and R3 with 0 outs.  Batter hits a hard liner right at the pitcher and it hits off his right hip, proceeds to continue right towards the base umpire who is in C position grazing him, then finally into the glove of F6.  Meanwhile R2 and R3 are running.  R3 continues home, while R2 stops and retreats back to 2nd.  F6 tags R2, then throws to F5.  Defensive is celebrating thinking that they just turned a triple play.  Base umpire calls time and places runners on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd due to the ball hitting him.  Defensive coach disagrees and states that since the ball made contact with the pitcher first, that the ball should still be live.  They go back and forth for a bit before the game finally continues with 0 outs and R1, R2, and R3.  

I believe that the coach is partially correct. Rule 5-1-1-f-1 states that the ball becomes dead immediately when a fair batted ball touches a runner or an umpire before touching any fielder and before passing any fielder other than the pitcher.  Based off of this, the ball would still be live.

Rule 2-9-1 states that it is not a catch when a fielder touches a batted ball in flight which then contacts a member of the offensive team or an umpire and is then caught by a defensive player.

I believe that the base umpire should signal no catch to indicate that the BR is not out, then upon the tag of R2 signal R2 out.  This would end with BR at 1st, R2 out, and R3 scoring.  

Thoughts?  

 

[mrumpiresir]

Totally agree.  My first thought was that the ball should remain live because of the deflection but cannot be caught in flight because it touched the umpire.  

[MadMax]

Based on how you describe it, let's follow the ball –

Pitch. Hit as a liner, deflecting off the pitcher, then contacting an/the umpire, then... 

"TIME!!" Ball is dead.

R3 and R2 stay put, BR is placed on 1B, there are still 0 outs, and there shall be a new Batter. Once the ball is dead due to Umpire Interference, nothing else matters. This isn't like Catcher's Interference, wherein there is latitude in the results and enforcement.

[noumpere]

28 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Based on how you describe it, let's follow the ball –

Pitch. Hit as a liner, deflecting off the pitcher, then contacting an/the umpire, then... 

"TIME!!" Ball is dead.

 

Incorrect.

Once the ball deflects off the pitcher, the ball remains live when it deflects off the umpire.

Tankmjg has it right -- depending on whether R2 was tagged while off the base, of course.

[stl_ump]

So MadMax is INCORRECT one the dead ball part? (I know nothing about FED)

[Rich Ives]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

Incorrect.

Once the ball deflects off the pitcher, the ball remains live when it deflects off the umpire.

Tankmjg has it right -- depending on whether R2 was tagged while off the base, of course.

Yes, but the umpire DID call time.  Now it needs fixing. 

[Jimurray]

14 minutes ago, stl_ump said:

So MadMax is INCORRECT one the dead ball part? (I know nothing about FED)

The call, live ball, would be the same in any baseball code. @MadMax would be incorrect in any baseball code.

[noumpere]

27 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Yes, but the umpire DID call time.  Now it needs fixing. 

As I read it, the umpire called "time" once the play was all over / relaxed.  (I agree, it could be read a different way.)  Fixing, then just means enforcing the outs that happened (only R2, perhaps), and putting the other runners at the base they were at (R3 scores, BR at first, R2 perhaps at second)

[Gfoley4]

example on a OBR situation where the ball is still alive. http://clips.milb.com/milb/2016/08/12/44-458278-2016-08-11/web_cut/milb_1040108283_1000K.mp4

[Mudisfun]

Are you guys playing baseball or pinball?

[Rich Ives]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

As I read it, the umpire called "time" once the play was all over / relaxed.  (I agree, it could be read a different way.)  Fixing, then just means enforcing the outs that happened (only R2, perhaps), and putting the other runners at the base they were at (R3 scores, BR at first, R2 perhaps at second)

Even if later the reason was because it hit him.

[MadMax]

I'm willing to step into the mess I made...

The quoted rule states that the batted ball becomes dead if it touches an umpire before reaching a fielder who is not the pitcher. It deflects off the pitcher. How does that change the status of the ball-in-flight (or in motion, whatever) according to the rule?

Next person it touches is the BU, who, according to the OP, is positioned as normal before the infielders. Ball's dead.

I'm just looking at this as a logic sequence.

[noumpere]

25 minutes ago, MadMax said:

I'm willing to step into the mess I made...

The quoted rule states that the batted ball becomes dead if it touches an umpire before reaching a fielder who is not the pitcher. It deflects off the pitcher. How does that change the status of the ball-in-flight (or in motion, whatever) according to the rule?

Next person it touches is the BU, who, according to the OP, is positioned as normal before the infielders. Ball's dead.

I'm just looking at this as a logic sequence.

5-1-1-f (2016, but I don't think it's changed; emphasis added): a fair batted ball:

1. touches a runner or umpire before touching any fielder and before passing any fielder other than the pitcher.

[ricka56]

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

5-1-1-f (2016, but I don't think it's changed; emphasis added): a fair batted ball:

1. touches a runner or umpire before touching any fielder and before passing any fielder other than the pitcher.

5-1-1 is the dead ball rules. For 5-1-1f to apply, there are two criteria that both have to be met (AND statement): 
1. ball touches umpire before touching a fielder - False, it touched a fielder first.
2. ball touches umpire before passing fielder other than F1 - true, but since it is ANDED with criteria 1, the 5-1-1f criteria is not met. So the ball is not a dead ball, play on. 

Boolean algebra can be tricky. 

[Jimurray]

The pitcher is always a fielder. Sometimes he is also considered an infielder. Sometimes he is considered with the infielders.

[Senor Azul]

Rule 2-6-1 A batted or thrown ball is in flight until it has touched the ground or some object other than a fielder.

2015 NFHS Case Book Play 2.5.1 SITUATION A:  B1 hits a fair line drive that is touched in flight by F4, after which it hits an umpire standing behind F4. The ball is then caught by F6 before it touches the ground. RULING:  B1 is not out. The ball remains live because it has been touched by a defensive player before it hit the umpire. Any batted ball that stays in play cannot be caught for an out if it hits an umpire.

5.1.1 SITUATION I:  With R3 and R1, a ball batted by B3 hits the umpire who is (a) on fair territory behind F5 or (b) behind the pitcher but in front of F4. RULING:  In (a), the ball remains live since it has passed a fielder. In (b), unless the ball touches F1, it becomes dead and each runner is sent to the base he occupied or to which he was being forced when the ball became dead i.e., R3 remains at third and R1 goes to second and B3 to first. (8-1-2b)

[FleasOf1000Camels]

Here's MY take.  Since the ball touched (or was touched by) F1 before it hit the umpire, hitting the umpire should not have killed it, BUT the ball is no longer considered to be "in flight" (the umpire, in this case, is just a part of the field).  Therefore, BR was NOT out when F6 caught the ball, and R2/R3 are not required to tag-up.  The ball remains live, R2 is either out or safe depending on when F6 tagged him, BR is safe at 1st and R3 scores.

[tankmjg24]

To clarify, the BU indicated time after play had stopped.  When F6 tagged R2 then threw to F5, he did not signal anything on the play, as he was thinking in his head how the ball had just hit him.  Afterwards he placed the runners, PU was not involved at any point.  As I have explained to him, the ball contacting F1 prior to contacting him makes the ball still live.  He should quickly signal no catch as to notify both defense and offense that the ball is still live and playable.  I also mentioned that in a situation like this that involves a rules interpretation, that he should have involved PU in the discussion.  

[beerguy55]

32 minutes ago, tankmjg24 said:

To clarify, the BU indicated time after play had stopped.  When F6 tagged R2 then threw to F5, he did not signal anything on the play, as he was thinking in his head how the ball had just hit him.  Afterwards he placed the runners, PU was not involved at any point.  As I have explained to him, the ball contacting F1 prior to contacting him makes the ball still live.  He should quickly signal no catch as to notify both defense and offense that the ball is still live and playable.  I also mentioned that in a situation like this that involves a rules interpretation, that he should have involved PU in the discussion.  

Sort of.  If the defense is celebrating, and leaving the field, to say the play has stopped is an overstatement and probably a mischaracterization.  This is the point where heads up base runners advance  (youtube 'premature celebration' to find examples), and the umpire killed any opportunity of that - especially if he has not indicated anyone is out yet.  I think this is what Rich Ives is alluding to above in having to fix things after calling time prematurely.

[CJK]

On 4/7/2017 at 5:18 PM, beerguy55 said:

If the defense is celebrating, and leaving the field, to say the play has stopped is an overstatement and probably a mischaracterization.  This is the point where heads up base runners advance  (youtube 'premature celebration' to find examples), and the umpire killed any opportunity of that - especially if he has not indicated anyone is out yet.

Also sort of.  If I were that base guy and I were unsure of how to apply the rules correctly in this situation, I would definitely call time when runners had stopped their aggressive advance and the defense was no longer attempting a play, because neither team should benefit from my uncertainty.

I view this as a different situation than, say, the "premature celebration" clip where the umpire actually made a call and the defense celebrated in spite of it.  In that case, the decision was clear and the defense did not react accordingly; that's the fault of the defense.  In this OP, where the confusion was caused by a failure of the umpire to actually call anything, I don't want runners running around or defenders starting a snowball fight "just in case."  I would kill this as soon as there was no immediate play; work it out with my partner; explain face-to-face to each coach (probably eating whatever felt like my fairly-earned ration of sh!t from at least one of them); place runners, call outs, and score runs according to our judgement; and move on, hopefully having learned yet another valuable lesson that I'll probably never have a chance to use.

[tankmjg24]

The issue was that the BU forgot/did not know that if the ball made contact with the pitcher prior to contacting him, that the ball was still live.  He realized that the ball hit him as he was trying to turn away from the ball, but had a delayed reaction to signaling dead ball and placing the runners.