Homerun with two out - runner misses base

[beerguy55]

Bases loaded with two out, batter hits home run.   R1 misses both second base and third base.

If defense appeals to second, no runs score.

If defense appeals to third, two runs score.

Correct?

Assuming that's correct - After appealing to third and getting the third out, can they realize their mistake then appeal to second?

[Jimurray]

22 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

Correct. As for the second question, they cannot appeal on R1 again after he is called out for the appeal at third base. 

Why not? It's a fourth out appeal at a different base.

[beerguy55]

51 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Why not? It's a fourth out appeal at a different base.

I'm assuming that it's not a fourth out because you can't have the same runner out twice (can you?) - it's more like a request to convert a third out from one base to another?  Not sure if that's valid.

I think a similar scenario is R2,R3 with two out, ball hit to gap, BR misses first and goes to second base - he is thrown out at second, F4 sells the tag, U2 bangs him out, both runs count.  Can defense then appeal to first to negate the runs?

 

[Jimurray]

12 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I'm assuming that it's not a fourth out because you can't have the same runner out twice (can you?) - it's more like a request to convert a third out from one base to another?  Not sure if that's valid.

I think a similar scenario is R2,R3 with two out, ball hit to gap, BR misses first and goes to second base - he is thrown out at second, F4 sells the tag, U2 bangs him out, both runs count.  Can defense then appeal to first to negate the runs?

 

Advantageous fourth, fifth etc. outs are allowed on the same runner. But a runner can not make more than one of the three outs used to end an inning.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 BRD (section 4, p. 17):

Appeals: Gain Advantageous Fourth Out: Same Runner Appealed Twice

Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  To gain an advantageous fourth out, the same runner may be appealed at two bases, regardless of the outcome of the first appeal. (WRIM section 8.4.3e, p. 170)

NCAA/FED Same as OBR.

[maven]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I'm assuming that it's not a fourth out because you can't have the same runner out twice (can you?) - it's more like a request to convert a third out from one base to another?  Not sure if that's valid.

A so-called fourth out is merely apparent anyway. When not advantageous, it's disallowed. When advantageous, it supersedes the third out.

So we wouldn't really be calling a runner out twice: we'd be allowing the defense to record an out for a different infraction by the same runner because doing so is to their advantage.

[Stk004]

2 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2016 BRD (section 4, p. 17):

 

Appeals: Gain Advantageous Fourth Out: Same Runner Appealed Twice

 

Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  To gain an advantageous fourth out, the same runner may be appealed at two bases, regardless of the outcome of the first appeal. (WRIM section 8.4.3e, p. 170)

 

NCAA/FED Same as OBR.

 

I stand corrected. Learn something new everyday. 

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I'm assuming that it's not a fourth out because you can't have the same runner out twice (can you?) -

 

He's not out twice.  That's the point.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Stk004 said:

I stand corrected. Learn something new everyday. 

The question is where did you learn what you had to unlearn?

[Stk004]

Just now, Jimurray said:

The question is where did you learn what you had to unlearn?

Honestly I just went off of my knowledge of the rule book and figured that you couldn't get the same runner twice. I was wrong. 

[Kevin_K]

I think, and I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong, the question might be more about the base that the defense is appealing more than if the defense appeals the two missed touches.

So to address the OP:

If the defense appeals the miss at 2B, no runs score as it is considered as a force. If the defense appeals the miss at 3B, two runs score as it is considered as a time play.

[Stk004]

So what if the defense throws the ball out of play when appealing at 3B? Can they appeal at 2B still? I think I know the answer but what do you guys say?

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Kevin_K said:

I think, and I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong, the question might be more about the base that the defense is appealing more than if the defense appeals the two missed touches.

So to address the OP:

If the defense appeals the miss at 2B, no runs score as it is considered as a force. If the defense appeals the miss at 3B, two runs score as it is considered as a time play.

You might have to change the sort order of the thread to understand the first part of the OP was already correctly addressed and the second question of the OP was "if the defense appeals the two missed touches" , one of those being an advantageous fourth out.

[Senor Azul]

Here’s the rule that answers your question for OBR, Mr. stk004:

OBR 5.09c…An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play.

Successive appeals may not be made on a runner at the same base. If the defensive team on its first appeal errs, a request for a second appeal on the same runner at the same base shall not be allowed by the umpire. (Intended meaning of the word “err” is that the defensive team in making an appeal threw the ball out of play. For example, if the pitcher threw to first base to appeal and threw the ball into the stands, no second appeal would be allowed.)

And here’s the interpretation that clarifies it:

PBUC:  If the pitcher or any member of the defensive team throws the ball out of play when making an appeal, such act shall be considered an attempted play. No further appeal will be allowed on any runner at any base. (paragraph 6.2.3 on p. 49 of 2014 edition)

 

FED/NCAA handle this question differently.

[VolUmp]

5 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

If the defense appeals the miss at 2B, no runs score as it is considered as a force. If the defense appeals the miss at 3B, two runs score as it is considered as a time play.

And to think ... this was in the OP. 

[Jimurray]

43 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Here’s the rule that answers your question for OBR, Mr. stk004:

 

OBR 5.09c…An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play.

 

Successive appeals may not be made on a runner at the same base. If the defensive team on its first appeal errs, a request for a second appeal on the same runner at the same base shall not be allowed by the umpire. (Intended meaning of the word “err” is that the defensive team in making an appeal threw the ball out of play. For example, if the pitcher threw to first base to appeal and threw the ball into the stands, no second appeal would be allowed.)

 

And here’s the interpretation that clarifies it:

 

PBUC:  If the pitcher or any member of the defensive team throws the ball out of play when making an appeal, such act shall be considered an attempted play. No further appeal will be allowed on any runner at any base. (paragraph 6.2.3 on p. 49 of 2014 edition)

 

 

 

FED/NCAA handle this question differently.

 

Your cite answers @Stk004 question because I believe there was a break in the action when the first appeal took place. If the first appeal was part of the continuous action created by the batted ball I think a second appeal at 2B would be allowed. I am uncertain if an appeal at 3B would be reallowed but I lean towards not. Would you continue to paste the remainder of the PBUC cite which refers to "definite break in action". Real world application: R1, R2, fly ball to outfield, R2 tags, R1 doesn't, throw is to 1B to appeal R1 sliding back while R2 advances and misses 3B as the overthrow of 1B goes out of play. Awards are made but R2 never retouches 3B. Can R2 be appealed at 3B because the original appeal in which the defense erred and threw it out of play was part of "continuous action"?

[Stk004]

11 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Bases loaded with two out, batter hits home run.   R1 misses both second base and third base.

If defense appeals to second, no runs score.

If defense appeals to third, two runs score.

Correct?

Assuming that's correct - After appealing to third and getting the third out, can they realize their mistake then appeal to second?

Correct. As for the second question, they cannot appeal on R1 again after he is called out for the appeal at third base.