Player other than catcher in foul territory

[beerguy55]

OBR says all players except catcher must be positioned in fair territory when ball is put in play, and that beyond pitcher/catcher any player may position themselves anywhere in fair territory.

But I don't see a penalty for F3-F9 failing to comply.  Balk?

As a coach, I'd never complain if someone wanted to stick their right fielder in foul territory, but would I have avenue to appeal after an at bat if my batter got out (especially by the illegally positioned fielder) - kind of like waiting for an improper batter to bat to see what happens before appealing?

[stkjock]

IIRC from prior threads here, Umpire would tell player to move into fair territory, no real penalty 

 

 

[BT_Blue]

Believe it also depends on the rule set.

[Rich Ives]

2013 MLBUM Page 34 paragraph (n).

"Can the second baseman back up an appeal play at first?

"Ruling: While the second baseman can run onto foul territory after the ball is put in play, the umpire may not put the ball in play until all fielders (other than the catcher) are on fair territory."

This would seem to imply that a fielder MAY go onto foul territory as soon as the ball is put in play.

 

[maven]

4 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

But I don't see a penalty for F3-F9 failing to comply.  Balk?

<sarcasm>

Yes, the penalty for everything unusual is a balk.

</sarcasm>

If you see no penalty in the rule, then there is no penalty. Lots of provisions are like that.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, maven said:

<sarcasm>

Yes, the penalty for everything unusual is a balk.

</sarcasm>

If you see no penalty in the rule, then there is no penalty. Lots of provisions are like that.

There was a penalty in the rule depending on whether you were reading a pdf or Triumph paper edition at least in 2013 thru 2015. A neophyte could read a balk penalty for fielders not in fair territory due to the Triumph indenting. If you look at the Triumph 2015 edition and compare the 2016 edition of rule 5.02 (4.03) you will see that they took notice of the problem and corrected the indenting.

[VolUmp]

As Maven alluded to ... the F3 and F9 "balk" is right up there with the biggest rule myths in baseball.  I've often had HS coaches asking for a balk  (only after his runner gets picked off at 1B) because the F3 wasn't standing in fair territory.  And incidentally, in FED, you only need one foot in Fair Territory for the ball to be put in play.

Not to hijack the thread ... but a related myth is trying to pull the hidden ball trick after a time out.

[Jimurray]

15 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

As Maven alluded to ... the F3 and F9 "balk" is right up there with the biggest rule myths in baseball.  I've often had HS coaches asking for a balk  (only after his runner gets picked off at 1B) because the F3 wasn't standing in fair territory.  And incidentally, in FED, you only need one foot in Fair Territory for the ball to be put in play.

Not to hijack the thread ... but a related myth is trying to pull the hidden ball trick after a time out.

F3 does not have to have one foot in fair territory in FED for a pickoff, albeit he probably would to successfully tag R1 out.

[VolUmp]

Just now, Jimurray said:

F3 does not have to have one foot in fair territory in FED for a pickoff, albeit he probably would to successfully tag R1 out.

Ummmmm ... I didn't say he did.

[Rich Ives]

2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

There was a penalty in the rule depending on whether you were reading a pdf or Triumph paper edition at least in 2013 thru 2015. A neophyte could read a balk penalty for fielders not in fair territory due to the Triumph indenting. If you look at the Triumph 2015 edition and compare the 2016 edition of rule 5.02 (4.03) you will see that they took notice of the problem and corrected the indenting.

There was never a penalty at 1B.  There was only one if the catcher left his box too soon on a IBB. It was listed under the IBB section, not the whole section.  It was repeated in the balk rule.

[Jimurray]

41 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

Ummmmm ... I didn't say he did.

I interpreted "standing in fair territory" as both feet. But you did specify one foot in fair territory for making the ball live. But it should be one foot touching fair territory in FED. And whose looking?

[Jimurray]

23 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

There was never a penalty at 1B.  There was only one if the catcher left his box too soon on a IBB. It was listed under the IBB section, not the whole section.  It was repeated in the balk rule.

I agree. But peruse the 2015 printed version and tell me a neophyte might interpret it differently. Obviously someone decided to change the indenting in 2016 to avoid confusing neophytes or older umpires who would call firstbasemans balks (they existed).

What is repeated in the balk rule is ambivalent about when to call the actual (not the fielders balk) balk. TOP or time of release per 5.02. Just being precise about what the rules read. Actual practice differs and I have posted my opinion about how focused umpires should be about the rule as written or interpretted.

[maven]

11 hours ago, Jimurray said:

There was a penalty in the rule depending on whether you were reading a pdf or Triumph paper edition at least in 2013 thru 2015. A neophyte could read a balk penalty for fielders not in fair territory due to the Triumph indenting. If you look at the Triumph 2015 edition and compare the 2016 edition of rule 5.02 (4.03) you will see that they took notice of the problem and corrected the indenting.

The OP read the rule and said, "I don't see a penalty for F3-F9 failing to comply." He read it correctly.

[JSam21]

In Fed it is to be called an Illegal Pitch... with runners on an Illegal Pitch is a balk.

In OBR... it is nothing.

 

[ALStripes17]

And incidentally, in FED, you only need one foot in Fair Territory for the ball to be put in play.

This is incorrect. We only care about the batter and the battery for putting the ball in play. Unless you interpret 'legal pitching position' to include the fielders, which would be a very loose stretch bc it's not part of the pitcher's actual position.

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[maven]

34 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

This is incorrect. We only care about the batter and the battery for putting the ball in play. Unless you interpret 'legal pitching position' to include the fielders, which would be a very loose stretch bc it's not part of the pitcher's actual position.

FED 1-1-4:

"At the time of the pitch, all fielders shall be on fair ground except the catcher who shall be in the catcher's box. A fielder is in fair ground when at least one foot is touching fair ground.

PENALTY: Illegal pitch. (2-18-1)"

[ALStripes17]

FED 1-1-4:

"At the time of the pitch, all fielders shall be on fair ground except the catcher who shall be in the catcher's box. A fielder is in fair ground when at least one foot is touching fair ground.

PENALTY: Illegal pitch. (2-18-1)"

Yes. But does that constitute 'legal pitching position'? As positions are determined by 6-1-1 through 6-1-3 and that rule states at the TOP.

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[Jimurray]

5 hours ago, maven said:

The OP read the rule and said, "I don't see a penalty for F3-F9 failing to comply." He read it correctly.

If he read the triumph 2016 version or any of the pdf versions he would get it correct. If he read a triumph 2015 version, my kudos to him.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Jimurray
edited to add pic

[maven]

26 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

Yes. But does that constitute 'legal pitching position'? As positions are determined by 6-1-1 through 6-1-3 and that rule states at the TOP.

You're the one who introduced the term 'legal pitching position' into the conversation. Volump merely mentioned the requirement, which he stated correctly, including the penalty.

They're different requirements. One applies to F1, the other to the other 9. Note that FED's rule is more restrictive than OBR's, as it applies to every pitch, not merely putting the ball in play.

[ALStripes17]

You're the one who introduced the term 'legal pitching position' into the conversation. Volump merely mentioned the requirement, which he stated correctly, including the penalty.

They're different requirements. One applies to F1, the other to the other 9. Note that FED's rule is more restrictive than OBR's, as it applies to every pitch, not merely putting the ball in play.

I didn't 'introduce' it. I quoted it from 5-1-4.

And as I said, if we determine that the other 7 fielders' positions are actually determinant in 'legal pitching position', then it would apply. I don't believe it does because a pitcher's legal pitching position is defined in 6-1-1 through 6-1-3 so we are allowed to put the ball in play bc 1-1-4 doesn't apply yet.

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[MadMax]

Side note: considering this is all Live ball situation, an illegal pitch is for a pitch... towards home plate... if a F3 sets up in foul territory, and F1 throws over a pickoff throw, is that a pitch? No. It's a pickoff attempt, and F3 can stand wherever he wants to. The only provision is that he is "legally positioned" at time of pitch, so as to constitute a legal pitch.

If the ball remains Live after a play, and there is an appeal pending... even if the pitcher engages the rubber... the F4 or F9 can jog over and set up in foul territory to back up the throw (wow, that's gotta be a pucker moment if there's that kinda "confidence" in your F1 and F3), because that appeal throw-over is not a pitch.

Baseball participants – players, coaches and umpires – really muck things up when they ask / call for Time unnecessarily.

Back to the F3's positioning... If he's setting up in foul territory for pickoff attempts, it is likely he is (still) standing there during a pitch. Thing is, though, what umpire is going to be looking there while a pitch is, well, being pitched? The only one who would likely see it would be a U1 in a 3- or 4- man crew with a R1. 

[VolUmp]

On 1/6/2017 at 7:50 AM, ALStripes17 said:

This is incorrect. We only care about the batter and the battery for putting the ball in play. Unless you interpret 'legal pitching position' to include the fielders, which would be a very loose stretch bc it's not part of the pitcher's actual position.

AL -- I think I finally get what you're saying.  And it's clearly an oversight on the part of FED.

The ball can be put in play with exactly two defenders in their proper positions:  F1 & F2.

If F1 commits himself to pitch, the other 7 defenders need to have at least one foot on fair ground, or it's an illegal pitch, immediate dead ball, and perhaps a balk.

So, three FED rules discussed here are backwards from OBR.

  1) Requirement to put the ball in play.

  2) Requirement on where a defender must be at the time of pitch.

  3) Penalty, or lack thereof, for F1 pitching with a player completely in foul ground.

[Senor Azul]

OBR 5.02 does not specify a penalty for non-compliance with the rule but there are official interpretations that do. These interpretations can be found in the 2016 BRD (section 255, p. 165):

PBUC (paragraph 3.18):  There is no penalty for a first baseman who is not complying with the rule other than to instruct him to do so. Umpires should do that only when the infraction is brought to their attention. If a player, after being so directed by the umpire, blatantly refuses to comply, the player is subject to ejection.

Wendelstedt:  When a fielder is not in fair territory:  PENALTY:  Any play is nullified. (WRIM section 5.1.2, p. 62)

Wendelstedt:  Umpires discover a fielder was in foul territory during play: (1) If they can determine when the fielder left fair territory, they nullify all pitches and plays after that time. (2) If they cannot make that determination, they shall nullify just the pitch or the play occurring immediately before the discovery that he was not in fair territory. (WRIM section 5.1.2, p. 62)

[VolUmp]

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

 

So Azul, are you in agreement that FED intends for this to handled similarly to OBR, but due to a lack of clarity, we have no Rules basis to disallow a pickoff with a player in foul ground?

[Senor Azul]

The BRD states that the issue of position occupied at time of pitch or play is one of twelve major rules where each level treats the situation differently. Here’s what it says about how FED handles this issue:

“Except the catcher, all fielders must be in fair territory at TOP. A fielder is in fair territory if he has one foot touching fair ground. (1-1-4) PENALTY:  ball/balk. (1-1-4 Pen) EXCEPT: A fielder without penalty may go onto foul ground to take a throw from a pitcher on the pitcher’s plate. (1.1.4)”

Play 115-255:  R1, R3, 1 out, 2-2 count. The umpire signals a live ball. The pitcher is peering in for his sign while F9 sneaks up in foul territory behind first. The pitcher delivers. B1 swings and misses for strike three. The coach at first points out to U1 that the right fielder is still in foul territory. Ruling:  In FED, it’s a balk. R3 scores, R1 goes to second. In NCAA, the play stands: The pitch did not result in a batted ball. In OBR, the umpire orders a do-over.