Player other than catcher in foul territory

[VolUmp]

2 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Ruling: 

In FED, it’s a balk. R3 scores, R1 goes to second.

In NCAA, the play stands: The pitch did not result in a batted ball.

In OBR, the umpire orders a do-over.

 

Wow.  Times 3.  Nonsense.

[Senor Azul]

Fed Case Book 1.1.4 SITUATION:  With R1, (a) F9 cuts in behind R1 for a throw from F1, who is in contact with the pitcher’s plate, and receives a pickoff throw in foul territory; or (b) F3 has one foot in foul territory when he receives a pickoff throw; or (c) F3, in contact with the base, has one foot in foul territory as the throw is received. RULING:  Legal in (a), (b), and (c). In (a), since F1 had not committed himself to pitch to the batter, the play is legal. In (a), (b), and (c) F3 is permitted to have a foot in foul territory, even at the time of the pitch. COMMENT:  Rule 1-1-4 requires all defensive players except the catcher to be in fair territory at the time of the pitch. By definition and interpretation, at least one foot must be in fair territory to comply with this rule.

By the way, Mr. VolUmp, aren't you the poster formerly known as Wild Flyer?

[Jimurray]

5 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

The BRD states that the issue of position occupied at time of pitch or play is one of twelve major rules where each level treats the situation differently. Here’s what it says about how FED handles this issue:

 

“Except the catcher, all fielders must be in fair territory at TOP. A fielder is in fair territory if he has one foot touching fair ground. (1-1-4) PENALTY:  ball/balk. (1-1-4 Pen) EXCEPT: A fielder without penalty may go onto foul ground to take a throw from a pitcher on the pitcher’s plate. (1.1.4)”

 

Play 115-255:  R1, R3, 1 out, 2-2 count. The umpire signals a live ball. The pitcher is peering in for his sign while F9 sneaks up in foul territory behind first. The pitcher delivers. B1 swings and misses for strike three. The coach at first points out to U1 that the right fielder is still in foul territory. Ruling:  In FED, it’s a balk. R3 scores, R1 goes to second. In NCAA, the play stands: The pitch did not result in a batted ball. In OBR, the umpire orders a do-over.

 

In NCAA Is a batted ball the requirement to: "PENALTY for c.—The play, if it benefits the defense, shall be nullified. "

What if F9 successfully backed  up a wild pick off and threw R1 out at 2B? Not that I'm going there in the real world.

 

[Senor Azul]

Here’s the exact text from the BRD (2016 edition, p. 164):

NCAA:  Except the catcher, all fielders must be in fair territory when the ball is put in play. A fielder is in fair ground if he has one foot in fair territory. (2-18 AR; 5-4)  PENALTY:  A play is nullified if the defense benefits. (5-4c Pen)

Official Interpretation: Thurston:  If a fielder moves into foul territory (perhaps expecting an appeal) before the pitcher delivers a pitch that is not a batted ball, there is no advantage to the defense, and the pitch will stand whether it is a ball or strike.

[MadMax]

11 hours ago, VolUmp said:

So Azul, are you in agreement that FED intends for this to handled similarly to OBR, but due to a lack of clarity, we have no Rules basis to disallow a pickoff with a player in foul ground?

 

4 hours ago, Jimurray said:

In NCAA Is a batted ball the requirement to: "PENALTY for c.—The play, if it benefits the defense, shall be nullified. "

What if F9 successfully backed  up a wild pick off and threw R1 out at 2B? Not that I'm going there in the real world.

 

Both of you keep treading down the wrong alley.  A pickoff (attempt) is not a pitch. Thus, we can neither allow nor disallow anything, because to do so, and assess a penalty, there must be a pitch. As long as the ball is (still) live, F1 can throw infinite pickoff attempts to 1B with F3, F9... heck, the entire team sans F6 (someone has to cover 2B!) standing in foul territory. 

If the ball is dead (poor departed ball), and needs to be made Live (by the PU), according to the rules, the PU cannot put the ball back in play until all conditions are met: the ball is in possession of F1, engaged to the rubber, ready to pitch to a batter in the box ready to bat. Add to that, for the sake of this discussion, that 8 fielders are "legally" within the bounds of fair territory. If F3 is standing in an "illegal" spot, then tell him to get back legal, and then make the ball Live again. Enough of this "penalty" this and "penalty" that squabbling.

[Jimurray]

15 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Here’s the exact text from the BRD (2016 edition, p. 164):

 

NCAA:  Except the catcher, all fielders must be in fair territory when the ball is put in play. A fielder is in fair ground if he has one foot in fair territory. (2-18 AR; 5-4)  PENALTY:  A play is nullified if the defense benefits. (5-4c Pen)

 

Official Interpretation: Thurston:  If a fielder moves into foul territory (perhaps expecting an appeal) before the pitcher delivers a pitch that is not a batted ball, there is no advantage to the defense, and the pitch will stand whether it is a ball or strike.

 

Thurston clears the rule up slightly. But is the criteria a batted ball or no advantage to the defense?

Here's the rule:

"Positions of the Defensive Team
SECTION 4. At the start of or during a game, all players of the defensive team except the catcher must be in fair territory when the ball is put in play. Being in fair territory means that a defensive player must have at least one foot placed in fair territory.
a. The catcher must stand with both feet within the lines of the catcher's box until the pitcher releases the ball.
PENALTY-It is an illegal pitch if no one is on base and a balk if a runner(s) is on base.
b. The pitcher must be in a legal position while delivering the ball to the batter.
c. Other than the pitcher and catcher, all other fielders may position themselves anywhere in fair territory.
PENALTY for c.-The play, if it benefits the defense, shall be nullified. If it is an appeal play; all fielders, other than the catcher, must be in fair territory to start an appeal play after "time" has been called. If a fielder (other than the catcher) is in foul territory, the umpire should not put the ball in play- If the umpire inadvertenly does so, there is no penalty (this is not a balk), nor does the defense lose its chance to appeal on the same runner once the ball is properly put back into play. A fielder may go into foul territory to back up an appeal play after the ball bas been put into play."

So if F9 goes foul to catch a batted ball before a "pitch is delivered" (TOP ?) the out is nullified. 

If F9 goes foul to back up an appeal play you require him to stay fair until you point.

If the ball is not dead and  "c" is violated by F9 backing up a planned wild pickoff deke do we nullify the play if they get an out on R1?

[beerguy55]

58 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Thurston clears the rule up slightly. But is the criteria a batted ball or no advantage to the defense?

Here's the rule:

"Positions of the Defensive Team
SECTION 4. At the start of or during a game, all players of the defensive team except the catcher must be in fair territory when the ball is put in play. Being in fair territory means that a defensive player must have at least one foot placed in fair territory.
a. The catcher must stand with both feet within the lines of the catcher's box until the pitcher releases the ball.
PENALTY-It is an illegal pitch if no one is on base and a balk if a runner(s) is on base.
b. The pitcher must be in a legal position while delivering the ball to the batter.
c. Other than the pitcher and catcher, all other fielders may position themselves anywhere in fair territory.
PENALTY for c.-The play, if it benefits the defense, shall be nullified. If it is an appeal play; all fielders, other than the catcher, must be in fair territory to start an appeal play after "time" has been called. If a fielder (other than the catcher) is in foul territory, the umpire should not put the ball in play- If the umpire inadvertenly does so, there is no penalty (this is not a balk), nor does the defense lose its chance to appeal on the same runner once the ball is properly put back into play. A fielder may go into foul territory to back up an appeal play after the ball bas been put into play."

So if F9 goes foul to catch a batted ball before a "pitch is delivered" (TOP ?) the out is nullified. 

If F9 goes foul to back up an appeal play you require him to stay fair until you point.

If the ball is not dead and  "c" is violated by F9 backing up a planned wild pickoff deke do we nullify the play if they get an out on R1?

Based on this language, where it says "the play", and does not mention anything about a pitch or a batted ball, I'm suspecting the play would be nullified.

Here's a scenario I'm considering that could happen.   R2 steals and is safe at third.  Nobody calls time (don't know if this matters).  F5 throws ball back to pitcher and he gets on the rubber.  Meanwhile, F7 had moved over and was in foul territory to cover the throw from the catcher.  After F5 caught the throw, F7 moves further over out of view of the runner and coach. F7 sneaks in behind and receives pickoff throw from F1.  I'm assuming play is nullified provided an umpire realizes where F7 was when F1 stepped on rubber?  Or not, because F7 was in fair territory when ball was "put in play" before the steal?

[beerguy55]

12 hours ago, MadMax said:

 

Both of you keep treading down the wrong alley.  A pickoff (attempt) is not a pitch. Thus, we can neither allow nor disallow anything, because to do so, and assess a penalty, there must be a pitch. As long as the ball is (still) live, F1 can throw infinite pickoff attempts to 1B with F3, F9... heck, the entire team sans F6 (someone has to cover 2B!) standing in foul territory. 

If the ball is dead (poor departed ball), and needs to be made Live (by the PU), according to the rules, the PU cannot put the ball back in play until all conditions are met: the ball is in possession of F1, engaged to the rubber, ready to pitch to a batter in the box ready to bat. Add to that, for the sake of this discussion, that 8 fielders are "legally" within the bounds of fair territory. If F3 is standing in an "illegal" spot, then tell him to get back legal, and then make the ball Live again. Enough of this "penalty" this and "penalty" that squabbling.

So, if there is indeed a difference between Time of PItch and Time of Pickoff...

Pitcher on rubber, R1 steals second, pitcher doesn't notice.  After R1 reaches second, F1 pitches and foul ball occurs.  R2 remains at second, correct, because he occupied second at TOP?  Likewise, on caught fly ball, runner is required to tag up at second, not first, correct?  (actually saw this last summer)

Likewise, if runner occupies second at TOP, he may not return to first.   But it's not just "time of pitch" - it's when the pitcher has assumed the pitching position (OBR 7.01).  So it doesn't matter, in this scenario anyway, whether a pitch has been thrown or not, it only matters if the pitcher is on the rubber, right?

So, pitcher on rubber, R1 steals second, F1 doesn't notice...F1 throws to first on pickoff attempt thinking runner is still there.  I take it this is a balk, even though the runner was there when he first stepped on the rubber, but R1(R2?) occupied second while the pitcher was in his pitching position?  

 

There seem to be sets of conditions to when a ball is put in play, when a pitcher assumes his pitching position, and when a pitcher starts his delivery  (time of pitch)?  My understanding is a "play" ends either with time called, or the pitcher assumes his pitching position, which would start the next play.  So is the spirit of the rule to enforce where players should be when the pitch starts or the play starts?  And I think it makes perfect sense for an umpire to enforce when time has been called before restarting play - it's more about either what happens between pitches when time hasn't been called...or if the umpire doesn't realize at the time he started play that a fielder was in foul territory.  

 My brain is now just a convoluted mess and I'm quite convinced that I would be a crap umpire.  Don't know how you guys do it, but I tip my hat to you.  

[Jimurray]

39 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Based on this language, where it says "the play", and does not mention anything about a pitch or a batted ball, I'm suspecting the play would be nullified.

Here's a scenario I'm considering that could happen.   R2 steals and is safe at third.  Nobody calls time (don't know if this matters).  F5 throws ball back to pitcher and he gets on the rubber.  Meanwhile, F7 had moved over and was in foul territory to cover the throw from the catcher.  After F5 caught the throw, F7 moves further over out of view of the runner and coach. F7 sneaks in behind and receives pickoff throw from F1.  I'm assuming play is nullified provided an umpire realizes where F7 was when F1 stepped on rubber?  Or not, because F7 was in fair territory when ball was "put in play" before the steal?

I think @Senor Azul and @MadMax need to continue reading in that chapter of the BRD. My 2011 version has a play with R1 and R3 with a wild pickoff allowing R3 to score and F9, in foul territory prepitch, throwing R1 out at 3B. NCAA ruling: Coach's choice of R1 and R3 or run scored and one out.