System 7 CP Mods

[grayhawk]

I've been using the Force 3 V2 CP since March and have taken a couple of shots that gave me pause.  One was to the shoulder and the other was to the chest on a foul on an inside pitch.  Both resulted in pain and the pitches were probably only in the high 70's.  Also, @Magic took a direct shot to the chest last week that he said was very painful which resulted in soreness for a couple of days.  These events have me rethinking my System 7 CP that's been in my garage for the last couple of years.  I originally retired it in favor of the Force 3 because it's a little bulky and also the shoulder caps tend to slide back which leaves the front of my shoulders vulnerable.  If I can get the shoulders worked out, I do believe there is no better protection than the System 7 on the market today.  The plastic plates are thick and configured in such a way to give excellent collar bone protection, and it's long enough to cover my last rib (the Gold and Platinum are both too short for me).

So I have embarked on a project to make the System 7 the perfect CP for ME.  The first part of my project is to deal with the shoulder caps sliding back.  I purchased some elastic and some fabric glue and believe that I have been able to attach the elastic to keep the shoulder caps in place while still giving me enough range of motion to throw baseballs back to the pitcher.  The first picture is the shoulder caps and how they can slide back.  The second is with the elastic in place and I think you can see how my shoulders are better protected from a frontal assault.

Part 2 of my project will be an attempt to create new pads that are slimmer than the stock pads.  M initial thought is to use 1/2 inch memory foam which can be purchased at WalMart or Target for about $20.  I am struggling with the best material to use to cover the foam so that it breathes and wicks moisture.  I could open up the current pads and pull out the foam and replace it with the memory foam, but I'm not sure I want to do that in case the new pads are a flop.  Any suggestions are welcome.

 

[Thunderheads]

A version 2 ... shots with pain or shots that gave you cause ..... hmmmmm ....

[BT_Blue]

Following

[MadMax]

@grayhawk, your endeavour here sparks these topics:

1. When you separate padding from shell, what parts go where? More to the point, do all padding components go with the "vest", leaving all hard plastic as a carapace? I keep looking at that "foam loaf" just above the armpit in your photos there, and I see that you shifted the shoulder pauldron to overlap that when you put your elastic rigging straps in place (brilliant move by the way). If you are truly rebuilding the padding vest, then I think you'll be in agreement to not include those foam-loaf flaps in your resulting design. Or, move them down a bit to cover the armpit.
2. Your use of rigging straps is brilliant, as I said. The alternative route I would have pursued would be to kill the rivets joining the ailette and pauldron to the shoulder plates and repositioning them, drilling (through plastic) or lancing (through nylon and fabric) new holes as needed, and using Post Closures / Chicago Screws as fasteners. I've done this on my (and other guys') Schutt XV, my colleague's Schutt AiR Flex and a fellow umpire's original Douglas WestVest. I use Post Closures in lieu of rivets extensively, especially since they are non-permanent (they are threaded), offered in a variety of lengths (I use 1/2" and 3/4" the most), and are either aluminum or stainless steel, so non-corrosive.
3. My concern with your use of memory foam is not about the memory foam itself, as a concept; it has more to do with which grade of memory foam you employ. Not all memory foams are the same. Porousness and resiliency spring (ha, bad pun) to mind promptly, as you want one that isn't too dense, traps heat, or traps moisture with no sterility agent infused to it. You've probably seen a tag on gear stating "AEGIS", right? That's a chemical treatment infused to the foams and fabrics being used in that gear that is antimicrobial and antibacterial so you don't get smells and rots with all that trapped moisture. One of the niftiest characteristics of the TPU-EVA foam that Schutt uses is it is exceptionally porous, thus allowing a great degree of ventilation and weight reduction. Be sure to source a memory foam that addresses these characteristics, or consider using a memory foam in conjunction, as a sandwich, with other closed cell and open cell foams.
4. You will drive yourself mad trying to render the stitches on the existing pads so as to re-use the facing fabric. It is a performance wicking mesh, and here are some that I managed to track down:
   - http://www.joann.com/performance-fabric-basic-workout-mesh-black-e%2Fo-quality/15227069.html#q=performance%2Bfabric&start=11
   - http://www.joann.com/performance-fabric-performance-quik-dry-black/12505277.html#q=performance%2Bfabric&start=23
   - http://www.joann.com/babyville-stay-dri-wicking-fabric/11822384.html#q=wicking%2Bfabric&start=4 (it's white, sorry)

[Mudisfun]

18 hours ago, MadMax said:

@grayhawk, your endeavour here sparks these topics:

1. When you separate padding from shell, what parts go where? More to the point, do all padding components go with the "vest", leaving all hard plastic as a carapace? I keep looking at that "foam loaf" just above the armpit in your photos there, and I see that you shifted the shoulder pauldron to overlap that when you put your elastic rigging straps in place (brilliant move by the way). If you are truly rebuilding the padding vest, then I think you'll be in agreement to not include those foam-loaf flaps in your resulting design. Or, move them down a bit to cover the armpit...

I have this same protector and love it. The loaf above the arm pit you mention is held in place via Velcro so is easy to re-position. I like what he is doing... the shifting cap is my only real complaint about the protector so depending on @grayhawk's conclusions I may be following his lead. All of the pads come off of the protector leaving just the shell; easy to wash or swap with reserve pads for those hot multi game days.

 

[Umpire in Chief]

On 11/7/2016 at 11:45 AM, grayhawk said:

I've been using the Force 3 V2 CP since March and have taken a couple of shots that gave me pause.  One was to the shoulder and the other was to the chest on a foul on an inside pitch.  Both resulted in pain and the pitches were probably only in the high 70's.

I switched to the F3V2 this year. Read my Review here: 

I've used it all season and like the masochist I am I was wanting to take a real shot in it. College and HS ball came and went nothing close to a real hit. Then a couple of weeks ago in a U14 game where you aren't expecting to take a real one I took one to the right chest area that really hurt. Probably like an 7/10 on the pain scale. I was shocked that it hurt that much. The pitch itself might have been pushing 60 mph before it was fouled off and I've taken other similar in my WV Gold with virtually no effect. Had it been at a more competitive level of play I don't want to think of how it could have ended up. So this is my last season with the F3V2. Probably back to the WV Gold.

[grayhawk]

20 hours ago, MadMax said:

@grayhawk, your endeavour here sparks these topics:

1.  When you separate padding from shell, what parts go where? More to the point, do all padding components go with the "vest", leaving all hard plastic as a carapace? I keep looking at that "foam loaf" just above the armpit in your photos there, and I see that you shifted the shoulder pauldron to overlap that when you put your elastic rigging straps in place (brilliant move by the way). If you are truly rebuilding the padding vest, then I think you'll be in agreement to not include those foam-loaf flaps in your resulting design. Or, move them down a bit to cover the armpit.

The "loafs" or "wings" as I call them, are actually more than just foam.  They are rigid and serve as additional protection for the front of the shoulders.  Interestingly, however, is that this is not the stock placement of these wings.  The product photos actually show them much lower and in a position that I don't like.  I think they are placed perfectly in my photo above and with the strap keeping the caps in place, there is practically nowhere for a baseball to penetrate.

2.  Your use of rigging straps is brilliant, as I said. The alternative route I would have pursued would be to kill the rivets joining the ailette and pauldron to the shoulder plates and repositioning them, drilling (through plastic) or lancing (through nylon and fabric) new holes as needed, and using Post Closures / Chicago Screws as fasteners. I've done this on my (and other guys') Schutt XV, my colleague's Schutt AiR Flex and a fellow umpire's original Douglas WestVest. I use Post Closures in lieu of rivets extensively, especially since they are non-permanent (they are threaded), offered in a variety of lengths (I use 1/2" and 3/4" the most), and are either aluminum or stainless steel, so non-corrosive.

I am not sure I understand what you are describing here.

3.  My concern with your use of memory foam is not about the memory foam itself, as a concept; it has more to do with which grade of memory foam you employ. Not all memory foams are the same. Porousness and resiliency spring (ha, bad pun) to mind promptly, as you want one that isn't too dense, traps heat, or traps moisture with no sterility agent infused to it. You've probably seen a tag on gear stating "AEGIS", right? That's a chemical treatment infused to the foams and fabrics being used in that gear that is antimicrobial and antibacterial so you don't get smells and rots with all that trapped moisture. One of the niftiest characteristics of the TPU-EVA foam that Schutt uses is it is exceptionally porous, thus allowing a great degree of ventilation and weight reduction. Be sure to source a memory foam that addresses these characteristics, or consider using a memory foam in conjunction, as a sandwich, with other closed cell and open cell foams.

I know I have seen anti-microbial memory foam advertised.  I am certainly open to different kinds of foam.  I thought of memory foam because it seemed the closest thing to zorbium that I can buy in the retail market.  The goal is to lower the profile without sacrificing protection, so if you have other ideas, I am all ears.

4.  You will drive yourself mad trying to render the stitches on the existing pads so as to re-use the facing fabric. It is a performance wicking mesh, and here are some that I managed to track down:
- http://www.joann.com/performance-fabric-basic-workout-mesh-black-e%2Fo-quality/15227069.html#q=performance%2Bfabric&start=11
- http://www.joann.com/performance-fabric-performance-quik-dry-black/12505277.html#q=performance%2Bfabric&start=23
- http://www.joann.com/babyville-stay-dri-wicking-fabric/11822384.html#q=wicking%2Bfabric&start=4 (it's white, sorry)

Thanks - these are great ideas.  I had actually stopped by a local Joanne's last week but they didn't really have anything close to what I would consider to be performance fabrics.  I am sure my seamstress would prefer to work with new fabric than try to rework the existing pads.

 

[grayhawk]

18 minutes ago, Umpire in Chief said:

I switched to the F3V2 this year. Read my Review here: 

I've used it all season and like the masochist I am I was wanting to take a real shot in it. College and HS ball came and went nothing close to a real hit. Then a couple of weeks ago in a U14 game where you aren't expecting to take a real one I took one to the right chest area that really hurt. Probably like an 7/10 on the pain scale. I was shocked that it hurt that much. The pitch itself might have been pushing 60 mph before it was fouled off and I've taken other similar in my WV Gold with virtually no effect. Had it been at a more competitive level of play I don't want to think of how it could have ended up. So this is my last season with the F3V2. Probably back to the WV Gold.

I wanted it to work, but I just don't have confidence in it anymore.  Adding the plastic over the kevlar was a good idea, but I think the plastic is too thin, and they cut down in the interior padding for what appears to be an attempt to maintain the same profile as the V1.  It feels less substantial than the V1.

[MadMax]

Consider, please, that if you undertake building a new padded vest to lay it out as a map of segments, or sections, with non-padded seams creating the boundaries. This undoubtedly helps in airflow and convection, and reduces bulk and weight. Wilson simply encases a slab of sofa cushion foam in some nylon and calls that a vest. You can see that All-Star takes a decidedly more tactful design route. So too does Schutt, Force3, Champro... heck, everyone except Wilson. This is the source of my disdain and contempt for those lazy corporate slouches – they did the minimum of design and production work, charged a premium, and sat on it for over ten years. And if you really think about it, they did even less than the basic rudimentary work, as the makers of the original WestVest was Douglas (wasn't it?). The WestVest isn't the problem, it's Wilson's mismanagement of it.

More fabrics to consider:

- http://www.wazoodle.com/fabrics/athletic-knits/anti-microbial/wicking-jersey-silver.html
- http://www.wazoodle.com/fabrics/athletic-knits/mesh/athletic-mesh.html
- http://www.wazoodle.com/fabrics/athletic-knits/interlock/procool-interlock.html

[BT_Blue]

@grayhawk, are you planning on sewing or glueing down the strap once you get where you want it?

[kylejt]

The Gold are Platinum are still up there in protection, and IMO just under the S7 in deflecting baseball energy.

I, too, like the ability to quickly replace the padding between plate jobs, and throw in a fresh set. Honestly, it's an awful feeling to don a c/p again, after you've been through a couple hours behind the dish. Ick.

I'm still not digging the bulkyness, so I'll be looking to take a hair dryer to the plates, in an attempt to conform it more to my body, such as it is. I think that will help mold it better, and in turn get a little better coverage where you're looking.

Keep us up to date on your mods. I like where you're going with this.

[JimKirk]

I'm HUGE fan of the MLB Wilson West Vest Gold. Check out MY personal review here:

 

[Magic]

So let me clarify a couple of things since @grayhawk mentioned me. I owned the Original Force 3 Chest Protector. I took a bunch of hits in it. And although I felt them, I never bruised or anything. So when the V2 came out, I wanted it. I bought it and sold the V1 to offset the price. I have had it since June. I have not really taken a shot in it until last week. I was working a D3 Winter League game. The pitcher was throwing 80 - 82 MPH. The pitcher and catcher got crossed up on a pitch. The catcher barely got his glove up so the ball barely grazed the glove. I took the shot in chest right above my breast. It knocked the wind out of me. As well it left a bruise for going on a week and a half now. And it was sore for 5 days. I get that you will feel something when you get hit on occasion. But this was a pain I have never felt before. And being that I routinely have pitchers throwing in the 90+ Range with the level of Baseball I do, I no longer feel safe using this chest protector. It seems like it would be fine for High School Level and below. But not when you climb into the College level. Atleast not for me. 

[Thunderheads]

1 hour ago, Magic said:

So let me clarify a couple of things since @grayhawk mentioned me. I owned the Original Force 3 Chest Protector. I took a bunch of hits in it. And although I felt them, I never bruised or anything. So when the V2 came out, I wanted it. I bought it and sold the V1 to offset the price. I have had it since June. I have not really taken a shot in it until last week. I was working a D3 Winter League game. The pitcher was throwing 80 - 82 MPH. The pitcher and catcher got crossed up on a pitch. The catcher barely got his glove up so the ball barely grazed the glove. I took the shot in chest right above my breast. It knocked the wind out of me. As well it left a bruise for going on a week and a half now. And it was sore for 5 days. I get that you will feel something when you get hit on occasion. But this was a pain I have never felt before. And being that I routinely have pitchers throwing in the 90+ Range with the level of Baseball I do, I no longer feel safe using this chest protector. It seems like it would be fine for High School Level and below. But not when you climb into the College level. Atleast not for me. 

wow ........

[gnhbua93]

I have both versions of the Force3 chest protector. I've been hit in both in the highest levels of baseball, that I can work, without being hurt. I use them very tight and cinch to my neck, chest and stomach. Maybe if you take time to fix the straps the right way and tape it, that wouldn't happen. Just my opinion.

[dl1340]

 I had the Force3 V1 and sold it for the same reason as above. I took a hit in the 75-80mph range and it hurt like no other hit before. I went back to my wilson gold Team Wendy retrofit and haven' had any issues. No two hits are the same but I have taken the same hit or equal on the gold and felt fine.  I had the force3 with a delta flex harness installed to keep it secure and snug. I was looking for alternative to Gold, as I had sprayed too much cleaner on the TW pads and it was bleeding thru my shirt. That has been fixed and Gold is my only CP now

[grayhawk]

3 hours ago, gnhbua93 said:

I have both versions of the Force3 chest protector. I've been hit in both in the highest levels of baseball, that I can work, without being hurt. I use them very tight and cinch to my neck, chest and stomach. Maybe if you take time to fix the straps the right way and tape it, that wouldn't happen. Just my opinion.

Mine is tight enough that it's difficult to buckle without dislocating my shoulder.  It's as high up as possible.  Trust me, I wear it properly.

[grayhawk]

18 hours ago, BT_Blue said:

@grayhawk, are you planning on sewing or glueing down the strap once you get where you want it?

I glued the straps to the plastic on both ends.  I have a plate tonight and will be trying it out to see if they stay in place.

If the glue doesn't hold well, then I am thinking that I can glue or stitch the elastic to industrial velcro.  That should hold very well.

[BT_Blue]

6 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

wow ........

My thoughts exactly.

[BT_Blue]

3 hours ago, grayhawk said:

I glued the straps to the plastic on both ends.  I have a plate tonight and will be trying it out to see if they stay in place.

If the glue doesn't hold well, then I am thinking that I can glue or stitch the elastic to industrial velcro.  That should hold very well.

Looking forward to your report.

[grayhawk]

15 hours ago, BT_Blue said:

Looking forward to your report.

So the glue was a bust - both straps came loose within three innings.  My next attempt will be to have the straps sewn to velcro and then stick the velcro on both ends.  Not only will it hold better, but it makes the straps replaceable if they lose their elasticity.  I am also thinking of using straps that are not elastic because I think I will have enough range of motion if they're not stretchy.

[BT_Blue]

Also be the sweat and heat might make the straps lose their stretchiness (is that even a word?).

[grayhawk]

1 hour ago, BT_Blue said:

Also be the sweat and heat might make the straps lose their stretchiness (is that even a word?).

Maybe a plastic strap with some sort of fastener would be better?  @MadMax - thoughts?

[grayhawk]

After much running around trying to find what I needed, I was able to make a permanent modification with new straps.  Joann's fabrics has a nylon strapping they sell by the foot at $1.00 per foot.  I bought 2 feet to ensure I had enough.  Couldn't find any rivets, grommets, or other fasteners that would work, so I took the whole rig to a shoe repair place and he was able to use rivets made for leather, but he added small washers so they would hold better.  I decided that I didn't need elastic because I have enough range of motion with straps that don't stretch.  Shoe repair charged me $20.  Here are the photos:

[MadMax]

@grayhawk, sorry couldn't answer you fast enough, was engrossed in 8 games in 2 days... but...

Leathergoods / shoe / boot rivets would have been one of my suggestions, but the challenge becomes having the "smash" tool to do it well. Obviously, a shoe repair (cobbler) shop will have exactly what you're after. Barring that, I was about to say use Binding Post Closures / Chicago Screws. I use them very often in my gear repairs because, unlike rivets, they are not permanent. They are (internally) threaded. And, since they are either Stainless Steel or Aluminum, they don't corrode. I've had these posts in my own Schutt XV, and they haven't come loose in the three years I've used it. You can make them permanent with Loc-Tite, but I don't see the need. The ability to loosen them up and change / fix / repair / replace the straps are advantageous.

Speaking of straps, the nylon would have, and will, serve(d) your purposes well. What sprung to mind when you presented the project was heavy duty elastic strap, which can be bought with different stretch ratings. The one I have here is actually wrong, in that I wanted something more like 100% or 150% stretch, and I got 50% stretch. You'd use the absolute minimal length, then cut it a bit shorter, and then stretch it so it's under tension when you fasten it in.

But bravo, it looks sharp.